View Full Version : The Rtvik Conclusion
Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada, or belived spiritual master.
After several years' worth of avoiding becoming aligned with the Rtvik school of thought, have come to the personal conclusion that the Rtvik system of initiation is spirituall sane & logical, and exactly what Srila Prabhupada instructed us to follow.
What held me back for so long, quite frankly, was the off-standing fanaticism of a few very "vocal" adherents to Rtvikism. I found certain of their propoganda tactics to be offense and crazy-making. I could not "hear" the truth, through all the "noise" - so to speak.
My accord with the Rtvik conclusion may appear to friends & God-siblings to be sudden. Yet the process of understanding and acceptance unfolded slowly - involving a lot of intense study, contemplation, and prayer.
For the pleasure of the devotees, an additional page is now connected to the "Guru and Initiation" treatise appearing on my humble little ATMA website, offering what I believe is honest information about the Ritvik system of initiation.
I invite all Krishna Talk members to take a look, and decide for youselves.
ATMA: http://krsnadasa-dasa.tripod.com/
Guru and Initiation: http://damodara_dasa_108.tripod.com/GandI.html
Sincerely,
Krsnadasa dasa
(formerly known as Damodara dasa)
Hare Krsna prabhu;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I have been clinging to the doorjams of the ritvik closet for several years now refusing to be shoved out of the safety I found hiding in there. Preferring to curl up in the corner and murmur, "I am not a ritvik" over and over.
Too many times I have been accused of being a ritvik and too many times I have denied the truth which appeared obvious to everyone but myself.
My reasons were much the same as yours. I saw the rantings and ravings of the fanatics, hated their offensive tactics which only drove others further away from the enivitable truth. I plugged my ears to block out the barking and growling of the insanity but in doing so blocked out the truth which was coming across in a much softer gentler manner.
But one question always came back to me, "What is wrong with ritvik?" I gave this much thought; more so quite recently and studied both ritvik and anti-ritvik websites and literature.
The research led me to the answer of another question that I had, "What is the difference between me and ritvik?" Well, nothing - duh!
But I still did not want to accept; again due to certain - as you say "vocal" (putting it mildly!) adherents.
I continued to research and I prayed to Srila Prabhupada. Then my eyes and my heart were opened and I read the words of Srila Prabhupada as they are - so simple, clear and concise.
Dear Krsnadasa dasa, thank you for your honest and unconditional support.
And although it has been tough and is likely to get tougher now, I sincerely thank you for giving me the big push out of that lonely dark closet.
Ahh...I can breathe again.
yours in service of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Hare Krsna.Pamho/AGTSP.
At least we all know now, you are adherents to Rivikism.
I have know all along, but you both seem to deny, for the reasons you already stated, I am just sorry, you did not come to the conclution sooner, as it would have been easy for us all who associated with you , to actually know what you are about, these sort of secrets are Not to be kept to oneself, I am very sorry.
My Dear Rukmini-Devi dasi,
Please accept my humble - but at least actually sincere obeisances at the dust of your lotus feet. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, our dear and beloved eternal spiritual master.
Do you hear the voice of a dead man talking? Just another asura screaming into the outer darkness, I suppose ...
These topics about Guru and Initiation are so confidential, and yet it is time for those who have the sense to know the truth to come out into the warm sunlight and fresh air, and bring encouragement to the hoards of devotees who have fallen into the web of darkness and fear over the truth of initiation - as it has been well-told to us by Srila Prabhupada.
And yet, this one topic is nearly nothing, as compared to the awesome information, instructions and loving exchanges Dear Srila Prabhupada has given us about the only topic of any real value, Lord Sril Krsna.
All other topics - even this necessary one, which is also transcendental - pale by comparison.
And so, having taken our stand, let us now turn to the real task at hand, preaching the unimaginable glories of Lord Krsna to those who remain living.
Let lying dogs sleep, and sleeping dogs lie.
Invoke Number 9, and happily turn to those sincere souls who are eager to know Lord Krsna's great glories, and how to approach Him, through the mercy-nectar of Srila Prabhupada's generous instructions.
Hare Krishna to you, and all who are alive.
Most Sincerely,
Krsnadasa dasa
Dear Krsnadasa dasa;
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to dear beloved Srila Prabhupada our eternal spiritual master who so generously shared with us the most wonderful of gifts. Hare Krsna
I hear faint noises in the background but these create no more disturbances than the barking of a tiny puppy at the mail carrier.
Our business is to chant the Holy Names and continue to help Srila Prabhupada with His mission to spread the movement of Lord Caitanya.
A moment wasted is a moment never regained. We do not know how many such moments we well be given in these bodies so it is time to move on to the sincere souls who relish the nectar of Srila Prabhupada words. For all others, offense number nine will indeed be invoked.
All glories to the sankirtan yajna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Hare Krsna,
To actually disregard disciple's of Prabhupada is offensive to Prabhupada.
Lets remember this.
First by stopping all the sites which promote Blashpeme against devotees, the devotees who promote these sites, nobody has any idea about who they actually are, if they are sincere or not, the content IF any significance at all is neither readable or of any value. This is not Vaithuntha talk, it is demonic talk.
Dear Krsnadasa dasa;
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
I dare not even consider where we would be without Prabhupada's mercy.
I just remembered something that Srila Prabhupada repeated many times:
"The d - o- g- s will b- a- r- k but the caravan will pass."
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Hare Krsna,
I am new to all this.. Can you please tell in short what is "Rtvik school of thought" ?. I trust that you guys are believers of Krishna and you guys talk sense ! Fighting does not bring out solutions, right ?
Regards
Hare Krsna,
I am new to all this.. Can you please tell in short what is "Rtvik school of thought"
Hare Bol,
Essentially, the Rtvik "school of thought" is based upon the idea that Srila Prabhupada's final instructions in regards to initiation are that his qualified initiated disciples may act in his behalf, acting as a kind of "proxy" only, so that the devotee would then be Srila Prabhupada's disciple.
This is based upon the final arrangements he made within the last few months of his presence in the material world.
It is, admittedly a controversial subject, especially in that it is treated by many of those who adhere to the present-day iskcon system of initiation as a challenge to their system. In part, this is due to fanaticism on both sides. To be honestly it was this fanaticism that made my own position to remain outside either "camp" - so to speak - for years.
This has only recently changed - tho' there are those who had already decided I was Rtvik, based on illusory assumptions, far in advance to my making any such choice in the matter.
While I feel that it is the bottom-line as far as diksa (ritual initiation), I very strongly encourage anyone considering taking any kind of initiation to study, contemplate and pray to Lord Krsna for guidance before making such a momenteous spiritual decision.
I invite you to check out the pages on my very humble little "ATMA" website on this topic for more information.
http://damodara_dasa_108.tripod.com/GandI.html
As you say, fighting solves nothing, and simply distracts us from our real purpose, which is to serve Lord Krsna nicely.
Most barking dogs will eventually tire, if you pay them no mind - and I am finding that this applies also to the barking we human-embodied souls do when trying to pick a fight.
So, I hope I've been able to answer your question to your satisfaction.
Hare Krishna,
Krsnadasa dasa
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
to tell the truth about someone is not blaspheming anyone, rather it is: obeying the order of the spiritual master.
Hare Krsna Prabhu,
I wonder who is telling these truths, and where they are 'at' now?
Who is the Autority in these truths? I don't listen to 4th class truths, esp. from Rivitk Advocates who are 'all-about' the untruth, so why should I listen to them?
Ps. I do not know who you are, so I cannot say either way if I offended you along the line, I am sorry, though when somebodys speaks and ask questions, peoples are normally more than often offended.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
Hare Krsna Prabhupada dasa;
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada our beloved eternal Spiritual Master and ever well-wisher. I fall again and again at His Lotus Feet. I pray that my ears and my heart are always absorbed in the words that come from His lotus mouth.
Hare Krsna
It is the Final Order that opened my eyes so I could see clearly what has been right in front of me for years. All aspiring devotees should read this book as it presents Prabhupada's instructions on the future of ISKCON very clearly without question.
All other intrepretations of Prabhupada's orders are just that - interpretations and speculations. Prabhupada was always clear in His instructions and He would not have left us to guess what He desired for both our futures and the future of His movement.
When I think about the whispers on the tape my eyes swell up with tears. The voices are clear leaving no doubt what is being said.
The future of Prabhupada's movement is in the hands of the sincere devotees who know the truth. I choose to remain in the cooling shade of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet and take shelter of His every word.
He is our Spiritual Master birth after birth. Srila Prabhupada will never let us down. Those people who gamble on taking shelter of any others and push dear Prabhupada to the back are playing a game of Russian Roulette thus committing spiritual suicide.
jayo om visnu-pada paramahamsa parivrajak-acarya astottara-sata Sri Srimad His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ki jaya!
Ananta-koti-vaisnava-vrnda ki jaya
your servant
Rukmini-Devi dasi
P.S. The immature and ill-informed barking of those who have fallen victim of the bogus info being spewed forth no longer has any effect on me. I am secure in my position with Srila Prabhupada and stand strong against the winds of the storm which will weaken in time as more devotees begin to see the truth.
but, have you read "The Final Order"? i know you probably won't either, but it is based on facts and proof. and don't you think you are offending anyone by saying that the Ritviks are wrong?
I have read it. I can't see anything contradictory to what Prabhupada already says in his books, there is Person Bhagavata and book, we need both of these, so it is arrogant to suggest we can become devotees of Lord Krishna merely by reading books, we must approach the person Bhagavata also, the suggestion that no Pure devotees walk this Earth is indeed an offence at the Lotus Feet of Prabhupada, to say this is indeed to say the Guru Archarya has no potency. Who could think such a thing?
Look at Lord Nitai he also accepted a Guru Maharaja, he did not create proxy, Lord Caitanya did not create the same, the suggestion that they would do this would make all Vaishnava community into a spin.
Dear Krsnadasa dasa and Prabhupada dasa:
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada our beloved eternal spiritual master. Hare Krsna
I find it a bit confusing and curious that someone who has admitted that they are unable to bow down to Srila Prabhupada and does not follow His instructions and has now also taken to the Saivite philosophy would even care about whether or not we follow Prabhupada's Rtvik instructions or ISKCON's perverted version.
Until such people are chanting 16 rounds per day and faithfully following Prabhupada's teachings and instructions - I do not feel that they have any business trying to tell Prabhupada's disciples what they think we are doing wrong. Even then I would find this action questionable and not worth listening to.
Calling us names is to also call these names to Srila Prabhupada thus making these people extraordinarily offensive non-entities to me and not worth wasting time paying attention to - just like d -o -g - s barking at the caravan - best not to stop and give them any attention lest they get us dirty.
Hare Krsna
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Calling us names is to also call these names to Srila Prabhupada thus making these people extraordinarily offensive non-entities to me and not worth wasting time paying attention to - just like dogs barking at the caravan - best not to stop and give them any attention lest they get us dirty.
Hare Krsna,
I have in another thread presented Authority from the Higest devotee, Srila Prabhupada disciple* and also his dearest Godbrother Srila Puri Maharaja disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja.
*Sripad Bhakti Bhavana Visnu Maharaja:
In the words of the most exalted and until recently, the seniormost Gaudiya Vaisnava on the planet, Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Goswami Maharaja, whose clear statement on the ritvik idea says it all, "It is the death of the sampradaya."
www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/ritvik/index.html
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
p.s. i don't want to misguide anyone; therefore, i will come out with the plain truth. this is KrishnaBhakta that you know Govindarama prabhu. as said before, better to follow a pure devotee of the Lord than someone that was never pure in the first place.
Everything else that is being said is about fall-downs has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the issue is about the Ritvik system.
Hare Krsna.
Dear Prabhupada dasa;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada our Sampradaya Acarya. Hare Krsna.
Again, I say, Prabhupada was very clear in His instructions of what was to be done to insure the future of ISKCON. He clearly authorized the rtvik system before His passing and never once did He say it was to be stopped although there are those who have decided that they know better what Prabhupada desired. This all boils down to power and desire to be guru.
The story you have posted here is a perfect example of why we MUST follow Prabhupada's instructions to the letter without changes to suit self-agendas.
Hmmmm.....I still have to wonder why a saivite would care. Shouldn't he be more concerned with following his own "guru" and not waste his time here?
I remember living in the bayous of Louisiana as a child. There were many huge frogs there whose very loud croaking would go on every night. Although they were there and croaking non-stop we did not even notice them. Thus is becoming the way with the croaking of these frogs who come around thinking they know better than Prabhupada and screaming offensive rhetoric at the devotees who follow Prabhupada's instructions as He very clearly laid out for us.
Here is an interesting article written by a devotee who witnessed one of Srila Prabhupada's conversations on this matter:
http://members.aol.com/gauridas/Dr.Frogdoc.html
yours in service,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
This all boils down to power and desire to be guru
Guru Parampara is lost, we must again have a Guru?
Lord Krsna established the Paramapara system 5000 years ago. Now the Ritviks are breaking this system, while holding onto false pride that this is 'real', its very dangerous system as it promotes nothing but aparadha.
It could be in one sense be called Mayavadi, so in the beginning at the end also, it doesn't promote pure devotional service, it is therefore made into another ism, which is predicted by Prabhupada.
This is the message Ritviks present. Bas.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
therefore the bogus guru system of iskcon is just another "ism". this is the message Ritviks present. bas. that's it. no more argument
For you its the end. so in that way you are right, actually you have no desire to serve Vaishnava you are in fact envious of them, the very fact that you praise Prabhupada, when I see, its Mayavadi to me, instead of me respecting/loving Prabhupada more and more, you do exactly the opposite, its concocted method, by a few envious individuals, the worse about this is, that you 'Preach' this message as pure.
In these days I have associated with you three, I can see the Illusion in your presentations, you are all about Aparadha, and I do not want anything to do with you all, hare krsna.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
you will most likely not be initiated through a bonafide system, or do you not care about that either?
So who is qualified to be a proxy 'ritvik' for Srila Prabhupada?
Read this:
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9901/ET21-2893.html
The original 11 Ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada, were exactly that acting on behalf of Prabhupada while he was present, Prabhupada did not select a' successor, because there was nobody qualified. But as we know some of the 11 Riviks thought they had become Archaryas, when in fact they were mere servants of Prabhupada, so now it is clear what Prabhupada wanted, mistakes were made, we should try to find a sincere devotee of Prabhupada and try to serve him.
Ps. Either outside or inside Iskcon, Iskcon is Krsna's as is Gaudiya Math, accept Guru anywhere but serve him sincerely and preach KC.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
i know you've been asked to read "The Final Order" before, but you refused then.
I know you did not put that link up for me, it was to promote your cause; I have already read The Final Order.
You are being groomed to promote Ritvik Advocates, in higher realization you shall see the flaw, take shelter in the sincere Vaishnavas who are beyond criticizing, then you will find you become the best of devotees.
I have known you for a while, you are both very very humble and sweet and also young and arrogant, you bad quality are showing now, I pray that you know the essence of Paramapara..Disiplic succession, and that you give up the association of non-devotees, Aryasiddhanta Prabhu & Devidasi are 2 very good souls, whom even I was fooled by, they are sweet devotees, the first sign of bad association is anybody who criticizes Vaishnavas, that is the First sign, you should be clever to give it up, this is a warning to you, in my past I associated with Ritvik advocate, my spiritual life was nearly put into ruination, this is no threat it is indeed a fact of life, I dare you to refute anything I have said Now or in years to come, Please re-read.
Hare Krsna Prabhupada dasa prabhu;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to our beloved eternal Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada.
In my humble opinion, until someone reads The Final Order there is no discussion nor will there be an argument. What could they discuss? They are uneducated and only speculating on Prabhupada orders on how to carry on His movement.
I have read this person's posts and he contradicts himself and also proves himself to be exactly what he says we are - great offender! He can not see the forest for the trees. He has actually said in so many words that he is highly elevated; far above any of us. Sadly, pride cometh before the fall.
There is nothing to discuss with such people as they are blinded by their own self perceived effulgence (and he calls us mayavadi - does he know the meaning of the term?).
Dust off your hands from this dirt and set your sights on how we can better serve Srila Prabhupada who with great risk in an elderly age traveled to a foreign land to lovingly bring us fallen souls the message of Lord Caitanya.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
He has actually said in so many words that he is highly elevated
Hare Krsna
Actually I have presented quotes from Vaishnavas including the dear Godbrother of His Divine Grace: Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaja who says about Ritvik idea:
"It is the death of the sampradaya."
What possibly could/is there more clear than this?
I also gave a link to a previous post, where in Sridhara Maharaja dear Godbrother of Srila Prabhupada, asks Govinda Maharaja to become head of the Caitanya Math, and for the time being become Ritvik, which is as per ettiqutte when Guru is still present, but in these circumstances Govinda Maharaja was to be seen as the Archarya of Caitanya Math, so indeed the disciples initiated would become disicples of Govinda Maharaja.
from link I gave before:
Sridhara Maharaja:
"In the maha mandal [earth] Sagar Maharaja [formerly Akshayananda Swami] and many others, they are also ritviks of Swami Maharaja [Srila Prabhupada] and also myself and they may do so. But in this Math he, Govinda Maharaja will be the representative. Henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function."
Purport
BY B. V. TRIPURARI SWAMI:
Here Sridhara Maharaja uses the word ritvik as representative of himself. While speaking he remembers Prabhupada and wants to assert that those of us who were initiating on Sridhara Maharaja's behalf already in certain instances as detailed above were also representing Prabhupada, and not just himself, as we were Prabhupada's disciples. So he has humbly mentioned Swami Maharaja, as if to say that it was due to his influence as well that people were coming to him for initiation.
---
So we can see without there being any disciples of Srila Prabhupada, nobody could have gone to Sridhara Maharaja, there would be no initiation, the Paramapara would stop.
Sorry if I have offended you, that is Not my intention here.
Haribol Prabhupada dasa prabhu:
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to SRila Prabhupada.
I remember when this person first came onto the forums - he proclaimed himself openly ritvik and wanted everybody to listen to him.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Hare Krsna,
I am for now done with this subject matter,
I have presented evidence by:
Vaishnava's who are opposed to Ritvik Idea.
Unless anybody has anything Concrete and Authoratative to say.?
Your servant, Govind. :oops:
Ps. AGTSP You may e-mail/PM me, for talks :shock:
~ Hare Krsna ~
Discussion based on matter of facts does make sense !!
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
what is the point of me associating with you either?
Well the offer still stands, haribol.
Ps. About the Godbrothers, that didn't include them all.
Plus thats a subject which is different, to what is being talked about,
as it goes, Prabhupada is not alone, he has his Godbrothers also,
Puri Maharaja being like his ownself, and BR Sridhara Maharaja, well..his glories cannot be said, Srila Prabhupada said he is so great.
Dear Prabhupada dasa prabhu:
Obeisances!!! All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
Thank you so much for your intelligent input on this thread. It is quite obvious that you are well read and have a nice understanding of Srila Prabhupada's instructions.
Let's carry on with our main business of chanting the Holy Names and do all we can to help Prabhupada.
Prabhupada is being pushed further and further to back of His own organization and mission. Nice devotees such as yourself will stop this disturbing trend and help to keep Prabhupada as the leader of ISKCON and also help others to understand His position as our eternal spiritual master.
your servant
Rukmini-Devi dasi
pamho agtSP
I canīt see how you are serving SP... by critizicing and denigrating your own godbrothers? Surely Govindaram did not poison anyone, did he?
It is all an inmature scene to me. If Govindaram is wrong, why not be gentle and give example as mature and sweet vaishnavas?
I do not know you, guys, but this Rukmini, and you Krishnadasa dasa are champions of insult and contempt.. and that is not Vaishnava.
Please cool down and show some respect to every sincere Vaishnava in any sampradaya, even ISKCON with all its flaws. Do not be "devotees" by criticizing everybody else that does not agree with your train of though.
I would like to know what is your active way of pleasing Srila Prabhupada, apart from fighting the ritvik cause... and giving yourself the title of "sincere servants of Srila Prabhupada".
your servant,
Butterthief
This person barges in like a rabid animal and immediately insults so I feel that all involved with responding to his uneducated and immature rants have been most kind considering his attitude. What started as a nice heartfelt thread was immediately twisted by this person calling us mayavadi and the like.
Either you do not know this person or you are this person (knowing him as I do - I know that he loves to come in under different guises) and either way there is no more discussion.
pamho agtSP
I canīt see how you are serving SP... by critizicing and denigrating your own godbrothers? Surely Govindaram did not poison anyone, did he?
It is all an inmature scene to me. If Govindaram is wrong, why not be gentle and give example as mature and sweet vaishnavas?
I do not know you, guys, but this Rukmini, and you Krishnadasa dasa are champions of insult and contempt.. and that is not Vaishnava.
Please cool down and show some respect to every sincere Vaishnava in any sampradaya, even ISKCON with all its flaws. Do not be "devotees" by criticizing everybody else that does not agree with your train of though.
I would like to know what is your active way of pleasing Srila Prabhupada, apart from fighting the ritvik cause... and giving yourself the title of "sincere servants of Srila Prabhupada".
your servant,
Butterthief
It is really wonderful the capacity we have to complicate things, now you say I am Govindaram. Just ask the moderator and you will see that my IP is not coming from the UK.
Looks like you did not read my letter... hmmmmm
do you know that the word "either" means? Reread my post.
Have a nice day.
It is really wonderful the capacity we have to complicate things, now you say I am Govindaram. Just ask the moderator and you will see that my IP is not coming from the UK.
Looks like you did not read my letter... hmmmmm
Hare Krishna
Is this "The divine love" for the godhead ?. Are we forgetting what we are here for ?
Think about it !!
Hare Krishna
Is this "The divine love" for the godhead ?. Are we forgetting what we are here for ?
Yes we are, obvious isn't it?
But Prabhuji when somebody is promoting against Sampradaya, then we shouldn't sit with our heads hanging, anyway I said what I wanted to in a polite manner, I did not call anybody names, I quoted devotees Only, out of context is one thing Ritviks are experts at. Be aware.
Lets consider this for example: 4 Devotees from different sampradaya will interpret Gita, what is the conclusion?
When you or I read Gita how do we see it? These are just examples I am avoiding talking about it so much, but I am sure you get the meaning.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
Dear Prabhupada dasa;
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna
I very much appreciate your well thought out educated and clearly written response.
It is extreme Vaisnava aparadha to jump over guru and to think oneself so elevated that they can tell us what Prabhupada really meant as if Prabhupada was not clear in His instructions to us.
Prabhupada was very clear when He spoke to us. He knew full well how fallen we are and how easily we could misunderstand. Srila Prabhupada would never leave anything up to us to interpret. How could we do that....we are too dull headed!!! Prabhupada spelled everything out to us including these extremely important instructions of how He desired His movement to go on after He left our material vision.
Thank you Srila Prabhupada for Your incredible generousity.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Govindarama prabhu, please do not reply if you want to say that Srila Prabhupada did not mean what He said.
?
Nitai,
Please answer:
#1 When the Guru is present and he asks His disciples to initiate on His behalf, what term would you use to describe this?
#2 After the Spiritual Masters departure to Goloka, how does His Diksa act? Has it lost its potency in Re: To His own Disciples?
#3 How many instances can you provide where Srila Prabhupada talks about Ritvik Initiations as a pose to serving Vaishnava's namely His own disciples, ratio? Please.
Get back to me
Srila Prabhupada would never leave anything up to us to interpret
What do you mean by this?
I have seen the 'Final Order' Interpretated so much, it took me 10 mins to scroll down, who is Interpretating? This comment means nothing.
Dear "Buttertheif,"
"I do not know you, guys, but this Rukmini, and you Krishnadasa dasa are champions of insult and contempt.. and that is not Vaishnava."
where have I chanpioned insults?
as for Mr. Patel, aka "Govindaram," the only "insult" one could take is that I've totally ignored him.
I do so, in order to avoid the 9th offense against the Holy Name: "To instruct a faithless person about the glories of the Holy Name."
I will not bother going into my reason for this - they're apparent from reading his posts bashing Rtviks, Rukmini, myself, and others.
Let's just say to me he is dead. He doesn't exist.
If this is insult, so be it.
K d
Dear Krsnadasa dasa;
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to dear Srila Prabhupada our beloved eternal spiritual master.
How odd I find it that this person purports to understand Srila Prabhupada better than He Himself understood what He was saying but yet can not understand a very simple post on a forum.
He is so blinded by his own self perceived effulgence that he can not see the extreme Vaisnava aparadha that he is committing although he loves to throw the phrase Vaisnava aparadha into everyone else's face.
No one invited him into this nice thread when it was started - he is the one that barged in with insults. I say if he can't take the heat to get out of the kitchen.
He is a non-entity and really should change his name so as not to offend the Holy Names of the Supreme Lord.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Let's just say to me he is dead. He doesn't exist.
?
Ok. You do know the soul is eternal right?
9th offence:
'To instruct a faithless person about the glories of the Holy Name'
Is this how you preach? When it doesn't work you say the person is now dead? I am amazed and bewildered; I don't mean any offence to you.
Anyway you seem to know all my bad qualities, which is Not a good sign to me, you are experienced devotee I am new to this {somewhat} maybe in my past life I rendered service, I have chanted all my life, anyway,
I don't require your association as you have fallen with this Ritvik Doctrine, Goodbye. I hope you get back on line again.
Dear Krishnadasa,
I visited your site and saw you were formerly known as Damodara...
May I ask you who gave you these names and why did you change?
Simple curiosity.
Govindaram said- "I can't see anything contradictory to what Prabhupada already says in his books, there is Person Bhagavata and book, we need both of these, so it is arrogant to suggest we can become devotees of Lord Krishna merely by reading books, we must approach the person Bhagavata also, the suggestion that no Pure devotees walk this Earth is indeed an offence at the Lotus Feet of Prabhupada, to say this is indeed to say the Guru Archarya has no potency. Who could think such a thing?"
Dear Govindaram, there were many Person Bhagavatas present way before the guru system. The disciple who repeats and represents Srila Prabhupada nicely, he is a pure devotee, as said by Srila Prabhupada himself. He who follows nicely, he can lead nicely. So, when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet, the new devotees always had the "Person Bhagavata" in the persons of many sincere disciples of Srila Prabhupada, even though Srila Prabhupada was on the other side of the planet. You don't have to sit on a big seat and get fanned in order to be Person Bhagavata. And so, in a ritvik system, you have the personal representative in the officiating acharya, as perceived by Srila Prabhupada. There is no lack of personal guides.
So, no nice ritvik is saying there are no pure devotees representing Srila Prabhupada, there are thousands of them. But, they don't have to sit on seat to be such. This siksa representation went on when Srila Prabhupada was on planet, and it continues.
You seem to think there's no good ritvik devotees, this is because you're thinking of fanatic ritviks, and not the nice ritviks. You should respect the nice ritviks, for your own spiritual health, for your own heart. Forget all the Iskcon propaganda that ALL ritviks are bad devotees, no, most are sincere devotees. To disrespect them is an offense to the feet of Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada. I think you are smart enough to understand all this, thanks,
Love Krishna
but, have you read "The Final Order"? i know you probably won't either, but it is based on facts and proof. and don't you think you are offending anyone by saying that the Ritviks are wrong?
I have read it. I can't see anything contradictory to what Prabhupada already says in his books, there is Person Bhagavata and book, we need both of these, so it is arrogant to suggest we can become devotees of Lord Krishna merely by reading books, we must approach the person Bhagavata also, the suggestion that no Pure devotees walk this Earth is indeed an offence at the Lotus Feet of Prabhupada, to say this is indeed to say the Guru Archarya has no potency. Who could think such a thing?
Look at Lord Nitai he also accepted a Guru Maharaja, he did not create proxy, Lord Caitanya did not create the same, the suggestion that they would do this would make all Vaishnava community into a spin.
Govindaram-
Look at Lord Nitai he also accepted a Guru Maharaja, he did not create proxy, Lord Caitanya did not create the same, the suggestion that they would do this would make all Vaishnava community into a spin.[/quote][/quote]
Lord Nitai gives power of attorney to His pure devotees, and prominent acharyas, Srila Prabhupada, to adjust according to time and circumstance. Srila Prabhupada chose the proxy system. To challenge Srila Prabhupada on his decision is playing with aparadha fire, maha big time playing with fire. I hope you accept this prabhu, because to think we know more than the great acharya is offense to the pure devotee. We have to respect and obey what Srila Prabhupada choose, what he said on the matter, via 5/28 and 7/9 letter, Hare Krishna Love Krishna
Dear LoveKrsna;
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
I am glad you brought this point up. This is something that has disturbed me for quite sometime and needs to be understood by those who opposed ritvik.
Opposing ritvik, challenging ritvik and attempting to defeat ritvik is in fact, opposing Srila Prabhupada, challenging Srila Prabhupada and attempting to defeat Srila Prabhupada, All of which are very serious offenses.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Govindaram-
Look at Lord Nitai he also accepted a Guru Maharaja, he did not create proxy, Lord Caitanya did not create the same, the suggestion that they would do this would make all Vaishnava community into a spin.[/quote]
Lord Nitai gives power of attorney to His pure devotees, and prominent acharyas, Srila Prabhupada, to adjust according to time and circumstance. Srila Prabhupada chose the proxy system. To challenge Srila Prabhupada on his decision is playing with aparadha fire, maha big time playing with fire. I hope you accept this prabhu, because to think we know more than the great acharya is offense to the pure devotee. We have to respect and obey what Srila Prabhupada choose, what he said on the matter, via 5/28 and 7/9 letter, Hare Krishna Love Krishna[/quote]
Hare Krsna Prabhu
You seem to think there's no good ritvik devotees, this is because you're thinking of fanatic ritviks, and not the nice ritviks. You should respect the nice ritviks, for your own spiritual health, for your own heart. Forget all the Iskcon propaganda that ALL ritviks are bad devotees, no, most are sincere devotees. To disrespect them is an offense to the feet of Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada. I think you are smart enough to understand all this, thanks,
Initiated {Bona-fide}
Initiated {Not Bona-fide}
Disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
Now you tell me how I can tell?
Is there such a thing as a good Mayavadi?
Seeing rtvik and the continued acceptance of Srila Prabhupada as our only diksa guru within Iskcon as mayavadi is seriously flawed.
If this were the case then as soon as Srila Prabhupada passed from His material body then all of Prabhupada's disciples would have needed to be reinitiated by an embodied guru. This would have also included the unauthorized gurus who set themselves up after Prabhupada's passing.
Also by calling this mayavadi these people are committing maha maha offense in that they are also calling Srila Prabhupada mayavadi.
Do they really know what the term mayavadi means? Appears that they are twisting the meaning into something totally different.
Govindaram-
Is there such a thing as a good Mayavadi?[/quote]
Dear Govindaram,
Srila Prabhupada's ritvik choice is not Mayavadi.
turn off the hate tape in your mind a few minutes and LISTEN to US,
LISTEN a few seconds,
Rukmini DD said-
"Opposing ritvik, challenging ritvik and attempting to defeat ritvik is in fact, opposing Srila Prabhupada, challenging Srila Prabhupada and attempting to defeat Srila Prabhupada, All of which are very serious offenses."
Srila Prabhupadas decision is NOT MAYAVADI, and you saying this is maha offense to him.
you are making offenses to Srila Prabhupada with your ill informed comments, because you won't turn off your hate tape a few minutes and listen to some sane devotees, and if you can't hear what we are saying, then this conversation is useless, and you bury yourself in maha offenses to Srila Prabhupada further, and we tried, but we cannot save you, its up to you,
Love Krsna
Hare Krsna
I am not creating any offences to Srila Prabhupada, by saying Ritvik Doctrine is Mayavadi, if you look in Prabhupada Books/Letters you will see yourself: a drop in the ocean:
________
The test of preaching ability is whether one is making some disciples or not. So it appears that your preaching is going on nicely. The standard of purity which I have introduced in the Krsna Consciousness movement will give you the real spiritual strength needed to preach. If you will simply stick to your principles, you will gain the respect of the whole world and our preaching work will be successful.
- Letter to: Tirthapada, Bombay, 13 November, 1970 (excerpt)
I am successful only because I am following strictly the orders of my Guru Maharaja, and I do not deviate. Therefore people respect what I am saying and they listen because I do not say one thing and do another. So now you are doing my work and you shall be like me and be yourselves the worthy representatives of our disciplic succession.
- Letter to: Madhudvisa, Los Angeles, 16 June, 1972
[quote="Govindaram"]Hare Krsna
I am not creating any offences to Srila Prabhupada, by saying Ritvik Doctrine is Mayavadi, if you look in Prabhupada Books/Letters you will see yourself: a drop in the ocean:
________
But this is where you don't get it. Ritvik is not deviation. This idea that ritvik is deviant is only in the minds of a certain section of devotees, and only in their minds. These devotees were saved only a few decades ago, and they think they know more than Prabhupada and the acharyas. These devotees went to various Vedic scholars for advice, and eventually these same scholars validated the representation system, or ritvik. This is all documented on the VNN. Also the Ramanuja and Madhva lines have a similar system of representation. So this idea that ritvik is deviation is only in the minds of a few disciples who are attached to a post.
Srila Prabhupada never said that ritvik system was deviation. THAT was his answer to the question!! How can it be deviant, when that was his answer?!! [officiating acaryas, same as ritvik]
Also figure this - every big ritvik basher there was, they end up with a very unblissful life. Look at them, Vipramukta fell into illusion. Look at the original 11 gurus, all bashers, they have unhappy lives. If they have not blooped and had gross deviations, they are saying very strange things. They say gurus can become demoniac and so on. Crazy things. To bash any devotee means heavy reactions, do your homework, look at the history.
Love Krishna
This idea that ritvik is deviant is only in the minds of a certain section of devotees
What section is that?
Also the Ramanuja and Madhva lines have a similar system of representation
Tell me.
Srila Prabhupada never said that ritvik system was deviation. THAT was his answer to the question!! How can it be deviant, when that was his answer?!! [Officiating acaryas, same as ritvik]
Ritvik happens Now also, when Guru is present somebody can initiate on His Behalf. Like India from Usa.
When Guru is no longer present it is Stopped, his disciples do the Initiating. This is not even anything to be discussed.
Also figure this - every big ritvik basher there was, they end up with a very unblissful life. Look at them, Vipramukta fell into illusion. Look at the original 11 gurus, all bashers, they have unhappy lives. If they have not blooped and had gross deviations, they are saying very strange things. They say gurus can become demoniac and so on. Crazy things. To bash any devotee means heavy reactions, do your homework, look at the history.
You should take your own advice/.haribol
they are saying very strange things. They say gurus can become demoniac and so on. Crazy things. To bash any devotee means heavy reactions, do your homework, look at the history.
Love Krishna
From the mouths of ISKCON's unauthorized "gurus" (still gurus btw)
HH Bhakti Caru Swami say, "Initiating gurus have fallen from the strict path of devotional service." (Guru-Asraya: Maintaining Shelter in the Guru-Parampara, GBC approved paper)
HH Jayadavaita Swami says, "Fact: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON recources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification. ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well."(in his paper, "Where the Ritvik People are right")
and....
HH Jayapataka Swami actually said, "Initiating Gurus can deviate from spiritual practices, act demonically." (Gurus and Initiation in ISKCON)
However, Srila Prabhupada tells us:
"A bona fide spirtual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." (Bhagavada Gita, 4:42, Purport)
"There is no possibly that a first class devotee will fall down." (Cc, Madhya, 22.72, purport)
and...
"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of maya and her influence." (SB, 5.3.14, purport)
The so-called leaders of ISKCON do not even follow. They even contradict Srila Prabhupada.
Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can see this. If these unauthorized "gurus" were pure devotee they would not fall. Prabhupada tells us this.
Srila Prabhupada never authorized the officiating priests to become diksa gurus nor did He say that ritvik would stop when He left His material body:
More from the mouths of ISKCON's unauthorized gurus:
Ravindra Svarupa das, "Srila Prabhupada never said 'here are the next eleven acaryas, and they are authorized gurus for the movement.' He did not do that. (on video)
HH Jayadvaita Swami, "By the influence of maya, illusion, a different idea soon evolved - that Srila Prabhupada had appointed eleven "pure devotees" to serve as the only gurus after him. This zonal guru system, as it came to be called, prevailed in ISKCON for about ten years, until it's falseness became clear..... Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, editor in chief during those years joins me in apologizing to our readers for BTG's conformity to the 'zonal guru' error. In particular, we express our heartfelt apologies for contributing to the hurts and wrongs devotees endured when ISKCON diverged from Srila Prabhupada's instruction." (An apology in BTG magazine)
No Archarya runs Iskcon at present. Head is Prabhupada.
Mountains out of molehills, there were same sort of problems in Gaudiya Math, its not new. Fall-downs occured in Gaudiya Math, same happens in Iskcon, we can see faults, can we see the devotion.
___
You will become known as Sahajiyas, wherever you go, Un-bona-fide diksa what will you do? Your goal is to see sincere devotees fall-down.
Talk about them? Your sites, your devotion to Prabhupada means nothing, IF you Blaspheme other Vaishnava's, why not leave us all alone, and Iskcon, and stay in your Sampradaya, thats what is needed.
The quotes above, talk about Archarya's not about Diksa Initiations.
This is the last thing I will say to you:
What is your problem? You admit that you do not follow Prabhupada, that you are not able to bow down to Him, that you do not chant etc. You also say that you can not follow a non-indian bodied guru. These are things you have said yourself to me so it is not hearsay.
Then you say that you have found your guru and are now a saivite.
My point in bringing all this up is to ask you why do you care whether anyone follows ISKCON gurus or ritvik? What is in it for you?
I have learned that the ones that care are the ones that have a desire to be guru (you told me yourself that you had this desire). Also, the ones that have something to lose (power) fight having Prabhupada as the only diksa guru for ISKCON. But as a saivite this should be none of your concern. Right? So why don't you follow your guru and leave us alone.
You thought I was ok to associate with me until you discovered I was ritvik then suddenly I am every name in the book. Funny, I don't feel any different. I still chant. I still follow Prabhupada's instructions ie the four regs. I am the same person. The same words come out of my mouth.
You, however, need to drop the ego trip and stop fighting with everyone like you are guru and so advanced.
Didn't you say that just nine months ago you were....well not following the four regs? Nine months!!! You are trying to lord it over devotees that have been around for 30 odd years.
Just a reminder...that is my last response to you. You can screech and yell all you want but it will go unheard. I desire to spend my time with Prabhupada and devotees who love Him and follow Him.
Have a nice life.
You thought I was ok to associate with me until you discovered I was ritvik then suddenly I am every name in the book. Funny, I don't feel any different. I still chant. I still follow Prabhupada's instructions ie the four regs. I am the same person. The same words come out of my mouth.
Same words? I asked you if you were Ritvik Advocate before as I recall, what happened? Enter Damodara Prabhu..
You have have not told the truth to me, so far I have been respectful to you, but you are misguiding KrishnaBhakta that is what I am concerned with Bas.
IQ test for devotees
1. Did we send a man to the moon? A. Yes, Ron Howard made a movie about it, for petes sake. Do you think Opie would lie to us? Come on, what kind of American are you? B. No, it was all a hoax. We never got past the radiation belt. See Krishna.org for link.
2. Did Lee Harvey Oswald kill JFK? A. Yes, its all in the official report, you unpatriotic pig! B. Didnt you see the JFK movie and the magic bullet info? Dont be a dope. BTW, there was a devotee actor in JFK.
3. Did Jesus die on the cross? A. Of course he did, the Bible says so, you doubting Thomas, youre going to burn in hell! [and were glad youre going to burn in hell, cause that means we are right!, and were going to heaven, although we kill animals for the fun of the tongue, and have sex for the fun of it and cheat and steal and lie, but we believe, and he died for our sins, so we can enjoy like crazy here on earth, and then we will enjoy like crazy in heaven, all because our guru suffered for us, and were so glad he did, and we believe in him and you dont, so there!] B. No, he escaped, and went to Kashmir India, lived to be 120, had children, its all in tombofjesus.com.
4. Did the US have a good reason for entering WW1? A. Damn right, history books say so, you commie pinko! B. No, international bankers blackmailed Wilson into the war, he complied to hide this affair he had.
5. How many buildings imploded on 9/11, was it 2 or 3 buildings? A. The media said 2, you un-American traitor, 2 buildings imploded. B. No, 3 buildings imploded, the third housed the CIA, and there was no fire prior to its implosion, which is very strange indeed.
6. Was Vietnam fought for America? A. Of course, you communist scum. B. No, it was for oil and politics, [why JFK got offed], just as Iraq is for oil and so-called allies.
Haribol, if you scored 100% in the A column above, dont bother to go any further. This test is designed to separate the sheep from the thinkers. All As means you can go back to the pasture, and not worry your little noodle any more about all this.
7. When Srila Prabhupada answered officiating acharya on 5/28, was this significant? A. No, you commie pinko ritvik scum, the gbc will decide what is right and wrong for us, not you envious guru wannabes. B. Yes, every answer from the founder acharyas has tons of significance, and officiating acharya has a definite meaning, a definite ring to it, it has a representational tone to it, [and maybe thats why the gbc dont want you to think about it too much?]
8. Did the 7/9 letter only designate a temporary guru system? A. Of course, you dumbo idiot, dont you read what the gbc tells us? Theres tons of evidence it was temporary, why, Tamal said so, thats good enough. B. No, unless Srila Prabhupada says directly, how can we say it was a temp job description? Theres no evidence to prove it was temporary, as far as we can see, if so, where is the evidence? TKG said?, un huh. And Tamal also said that Srila Prabhupada appointed ritviks only, and he never appointed them gurus. Un huh. Then later he reneged on what he said. Un huh. We know whats going on here.
9. Is the gbc law book and their claim to be on Srila Prabhupadas level, with the authority to validate fallen gurus after a 5 years probe, is all that authorized by Srila Prabhupada? A. Yes, of course, you ritvik black snake scum, and dont you question the gbc, you Vaisnava aparadhi. Gurus are people too, they stumble and fall down sometimes, just like everybody else, but if they keep their nose clean for 5 years, then they are good as god again, and dont you say a thing, you ritviking unsubmissive stupid idiot! B. Haribol, is there any sanity in this world? No need for comment. Hare Krishna.
More pearls of wisdom from Anon E. Muse
And Anon gives his last wishe, to be written on his tombstone [rather, his cremation urn] "he may have been cheated, but he was never bs'ed"
Here is the verdict of mature vaisnava acaryas who been around longer than a few so-called authorities, green behind the ears, recently saved a few decades ago, and read a few books and think they know more than Srila Prabhupada-
Other acharyas who support the ritvik system.
1. Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: "You have a temple of Prabhupada, and before Prabhupada himself, no others can give diksha and these people provide name and mala. The diksha should be in the presence of Prabhupada's vigraha. That will be better. That would be better. There will be no problem. Just to avoid problems, see so many gurus, they will leave peeta (the sacred seat), they are falling down. Just to avoid this, you take initiation before Prabhupada's vigraha."
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2924.html
2. HH Rangapriya Swami: "By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him." http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2925.html
3. Lakshmi Tatachar: "Again I have to stress that the letter makes it amply clear that the disciples thus initiated by the representatives of Srila Prabhupada are only the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only, not of the representatives. I also want to confirm that this system can continue perpetually even in the physical absence of HH Srila Prabhupadaji as it has continued in Ramanujas tradition as any person initiated by any acharya has dasyanama like Lakshmittathacharya Ramanuja Dasa though Ramanuja passed away long ago. Hope, Madhupandit Dasaji, I have made my point clear. http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9902/WD09-2979.html
and similar proxy systems which have been already done, and worked-
Example #1- HOW THE FOUNDER ACARYA IS ALWAYS THE SAVIOR IN HIS INSTITUTION, and other spiritual masters are his helpers.
A scripture from the Sri-sampradaya called Prappanamrta Tapana explains that a founder-acarya is know by five symptoms: first, he is udharika, which means that he is the savior of everyone. The Prappanamrta Tapana goes on to explain that those who come after the founder-acarya in the disciplic succession, who act as spiritual masters, are upakarika, his helpers. They are never to be equated, even after hundreds of generations, with the founder-acarya. Establishing a relationship with a spiritual master in the line of Srila Prabhupada first of all means establishing a relationship with him as founder-acarya. [from a letter written by Suresvara dasa]
My comment-
Here is the authorized Sri Sampradaya, wherein the true position of the founder-acarya is described by its authorized scripture. This is the situation today with Ramanujacarya. I will refer back to this example later in this exposition. Example #2- THE FOUNDER ACARYA REMAINS THE PRIMARY GURU AND SOURCE OF FAITH AND DELIVERANCE TO ALL FUTURE DISCIPLES IN HIS INSTITUTION. [also written by Suresvara dasa]-
For centuries, gurus and disciples have been carrying on Madhvas teachings, and it was very clear to me that everyone there identifies himself mainly, primarily, directly, and foundationally as a Madhvaite. His commanding image, sitting in his famous suddha-pose, is displayed and worshiped both inside and outside the temple, the seat from which he spoke is preserved in a sacred room and daily offered puja, and his life and teachings are continually recited by the sannyasis at Shri Krishna Mutt.
Many of these sannyasis are bala-sannyasis; that is, based on strong sannyasa-yogas appearing in their horoscope, they were awarded sannyasis as boys and groomed to be spiritual leaders in the sampradaya as they grew up. In recent times, though, some of these bala-sannyasis have fallen from the standard and gotten married. Our ISKCON history, of course, has many similar examples with adult convert. But so powerful and pernicious is the influence of the modern age that even saintly persons born and bred in Vedic culture may sometimes come to disappoint their disciples. Yet because the disciples, Madhvaites in this case, are absolutely grounded in the life and teachings of their founder-acarya, they dont feel devastated and betrayed, their faith in guru and Krishna remains solid.
Love Krsna
Here is the verdict of mature vaisnava acaryas
I have not heard of them before, also I have quoted Archarya in Gaudiya Math, so I am not sure why you gave me them?
________
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted."
Srila Prabhupada:
"Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya."
Tamala Krsna Maharaja:
"Is that called ritvik-acarya?"
Srila Prabhupada:
" ritvik. Yes."
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"What is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and..."
Srila Prabhupada:
"He's guru. He's guru."
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"But he does it on your behalf."
Srila Prabhupada:
"Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf. On my order, amara ajnaya guru hana, be actually guru. But on my order."
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"So they maybe considered your disciples?"
Srila Prabhupada:
"Yes, they are disciples but consider... who..."
Tamala Krsna Maharaja:
"No. He is asking that these ritvik-acaryas, they are officiating, giving diksa, their - the people who they give diksa to - whose disciples are they?"
Srila Prabhupada:
"They are his disciples."
Tamala Krsna Maharaja:
"They are his disciples."
Srila Prabhupada:
"Who is initiating...His grand-disciple..."
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"Then we have a question concerning..."
Srila Prabhupada:
"When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. Just see."
______
Simple, becomes Regular Guru, Not Archarya of-course like: Prabhupada No, why do you think so many fall-downs, we are Not on the same level as Prabhupada, I agree on one thing about Rubber stamping Gurus, this will sort itself out, in the future. Hopefully.
_____
I don't understand Prabhupada Movement has been established for what 30 odd years? Its in its 1st Phase, you would expect it will not be so perfect, also from the quotes by above devotees even they say by qualification one can become Guru, so we all agree on this.
Please provide conclusive evidence from Eminent Archarya's from the Gaudiya Math, they are my 'proof', I don't listen to anybody else, as I do not understand the circumstances in which it was conducted, I trust Vaishnava's whom I am familiar with, sorry, haribol.
I mean no offence to the Vaishnava's who provided the quotes.
Also every Archarya has a different opinion, of-cource reading Prabhupada's books/letters the quote above you can see, he did not want the Ritvik System established as it has not been done in our Caitanya Sampradaya before.
Srila Prabhupada's verdict-
HIS ANSWER - officiating acharyas - same as ritviks. This is his immediate answer to the question. We accept his answer. This is the only proof we need. If he wanted regular gurus, its only on his order ["on my order" "when I order"] and there is absolutely no record of his order for regular gurus. But for officiating acharyas, the 7/9 letter is documented proof of his order of such.
This is confirmed by Tamal himself-
Tamal - "Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn't appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus." (ISKCON Journal 1990 page 53).
The only appoint was ritviks, never any gurus.
This is fully explained on this website-
http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/compilation.htm
Accept or don't accept. Everyone has the right to their own view, and 1000's of us accept the answer of "officiating acaryas." This is our right.
Otherwise, why did Srila Prabhupada say "officiating acaryas?" No anti-ritvik can answer this. They only want to ignore this answer. They claim he ordered gurus, but there's no evidence of such order, and Tamal clearly states this as a fact.
Love Krishna
Otherwise, why did Srila Prabhupada say "officiating acaryas?" No anti-ritvik can answer this. They only want to ignore this answer.
Yes so? what does next line say?
Tamala Krsna Maharaja:
"Is that called ritvik-acarya?"
Srila Prabhupada:
" ritvik. Yes."
Satsvarupa Maharaja:
"What is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and..."
Srila Prabhupada:
"He's guru. He's guru."
_____
You state no order was given by Prabhupada, see above. At least admit, that Prabhupada disciples can become Gurus once they are qualified, then we will solve this argument.
Yes, acharya means guru. Officiating acharya means "on behalf." So, guru on behalf. Why did he say "officiating acarya?" You cannot answer that. They ask him a very pointed question, "after you're no longer with us," and he immediately says "officiating acharyas" and also he will pick some men to do this in the near future, and this is what he did with the 7/9 letter. And you and other anti-ritviks refuse to acknowledge his immediate answer, but you have no explanation as to why he would say "officiating acarya" when you think he meant regular guru all the time. Sorry, nobody answers a question with a term which is completely opposite to what you mean to say. And Srila Prabhupada did't make this logistic mistake, he said what he meant to say. Did you read that website? It explains this nicely.
What do the next lines say?
WHEN I order, regular guru. This is because Tamal keep pressing for what he wanted to hear. So Prabhupada said, ok, reg guru, but only WHEN I order! And not otherwise! Read that webpage carefully, and you will understand.
WHEN did he order reg guru? NEVER. Tamal said this HIMSELF!!
I'm getting tired of this conversation, Govindaram. Why? Because you don't hear what you don't want to hear. You refuse to see the obvious. I'm not going to play in this sandbox forever :lol: , going round and round with circular arguments.
Just accept that Srila Prabhupada ordered ritviks, or officiating acharyas, and never orderd gurus, just as Tamal said. Or don't!
But realize that major numbers of devotees accept Srila Prabhupada's answer, and his official document of order of ritvik, and respect these devotees. If you don't, and if you persist to bash devotees for their honest views, you will end up like the other ritvik bashers - a very unhappy life. Name me one ritvik basher who has a peaceful and happy life? Are they loving Krsna and Prabhupada? No, its not possible they can be peaceful and happy. Most are blooped. Look at the 11. Happy lives? Don't think so. This is because they bashed Srila Prabhupada's answer of officiating acharyas and persecuted those who do.
This is because Lord Caitanya said- "Some may say that here is a "big" vaisnava, and here is a "little" vaisnava, and they may be peaceful for a while, but how long will they be peaceful?"
Meaning that you cannot say the ritvik vaisnava is a "little" vaisnava and get away with it. You will go down, sooner or later. History proves this. Look at the fate of the ritvik bashers! Most of them call ritviks demons. One man calls them "maggots." They will suffer for this, without a doubt.
Don't fall in this trap. Give all respect to the ritvik devotees. Their conclusion is very logical, and they have their right to this conclusion. If you read that website, and hear what's been said, you can see it. If you can't, then you don't want to. But at least, don't ruin you life by bashing those who do see it. This is my humble advise to you. And if you don't want to hear all these points, and ignore them, then please admit you are so conditioned, that you can't listen, therefore this is a useless argument, and I won't continue to go round and round. I've said what I mean to say, and most logical devotees can understand. Its all a matter of what one wants to hear, and doesn't want to hear, and may have a deaf ear to the other man's explanations, which is for his benefit. This might be the case. If so, its pointless to talk round and round to a deaf ear. Read the website and try to understand with a clear mind. If not, then let it be, but don't ruin your life over it. Respect all devotees. Hare Krishna,
Love Krnsa
1. there is no instance of proxie gurus in the Vaishnava Sampradayas.
2. Govindaram is not disrespecting just by not agreeing. Disagreement is not necesarily disrespect, unless you are sectarian and then you take it as offense.
3. Srila Prabhupada was conscious of his disciples not being able to be acaryas or even regular gurus, that is why he apppointed ritviks, that doesnīt mean you have to change the whole vaishnava conclusion, i.e. cause ISKCON has had bad examples and ego trip powers, etc, you do not need to change the philosophy to accomodate.
FACT is that ISKCON has had (and still) ego trip guru falldowners and fly by night take it or leave it authorities.
FACT is that Ritviks acarya has never been part of the Vaishnava sampradaya
Why we try and mix it? To accomodate our own ego, I guess.
In this way, we can even become gurus without the pressure of being 100% pure.
Good move to perpetuate the cheating.
1. there is no instance of proxie gurus in the Vaishnava Sampradayas.
LK
Oh, so that gives us the right to ignore what Srila Prabhupada said and wanted?
Actually, as disciples of Srila Prabhupada, we don't care if its not been done before. If Srila Prabhupada wants it, then we obey. Psedo-discisples will argue with their spiritual master, but Srila Prabhupada taught us to never disagree with the spiritual master. He is empowered by Krsna to adjust according to time and circumstance. He is not chained by previous tradition. Tradition isn't law, its only tradition. Kali yuja means cheaters and chaos, so the great acarya adjusts to this situation, and therefore he says, "officiating acarya" or ritvik, and we don't argue with him.
Is officiating acaryas in our line prior to Iskcon? We don't care. We obey Srila Prabhupada, and we don't argue with him.
also the proxy system is relative to both the Sri Sampradaya and Madhva line, Vaisnava Sampradayas. I already made a post on this, argue with that post point by point. The result is a system of representation. Call it proxy or ritvik or officiating acarya, its just semantics. If Srila Prabhupada wants to call it officiating acaryas or ritviks, then we use those words.
Srila Prabhupada said "officiating acaryas." Who is so bold to argue with him on this? Well, this is exactly what the gbc does. We accept the term he uses, and the meaning of it.
butter-
2. Govindaram is not disrespecting just by not agreeing. Disagreement is not necesarily disrespect, unless you are sectarian and then you take it as offense.
LK
Well, from reading the response from Rukmini and Kdas, it seems to me that there was some disrespect going on there. Disrespect of ritviks.
Butter-
3. Srila Prabhupada was conscious of his disciples not being able to be acaryas or even regular gurus, that is why he apppointed ritviks, that doesnīt mean you have to change the whole vaishnava conclusion, i.e. cause ISKCON has had bad examples and ego trip powers, etc, you do not need to change the philosophy to accomodate.
LK
Srila Prabhupada is not changing the "whole vaisnava conclusion" neither are we. The ritvik system [after no longer with us ] is not a change of the philosophy. The philosophy is diksa from a pure devotee, who is maha-bhagavata, and ritvik representation of initiation from Srila Prabhupada is within this conclusion or philosophy. This idea of not being the conclusion is just in the minds of ego trippers, as you say. When a great acarya makes a decision, it is never against the philosophy, and to suggest this is so, is a great maha offense to Srila Prabhupada, and this is why the ritvik bashers are suffering. Show me one of them with a happy life. And remember, ostentation and power tripping is not to be confused with happiness.
butter-
FACT is that ISKCON has had (and still) ego trip guru falldowners and fly by night take it or leave it authorities.
FACT is that Ritviks acarya has never been part of the Vaishnava sampradaya
LK - Oh, so I guess Srila Prabhupada stands corrected? Green behind the ears, recently saved neophytes, who read a few books, and then they know more than Srila Prabhuapada? He said ritvik for the answer, but I guess he stands corrected by us? Read the links of the acaryas on VNN, one of them says that this ritviks system has been done before.
Butter-
Why we try and mix it? To accomodate our own ego, I guess.
In this way, we can even become gurus without the pressure of being 100% pure.
LK, I don't know for sure what you're saying, I only know that Srila Prabhupada said officiating acaryas or ritviks to the question. I don't argue with that.
butter
Good move to perpetuate the cheating.
LK What is this? Who is cheating? I don't know if you're saying I'm cheating or someone else. Be more specific. If I and many others follow Srila Prabhupada's answer, how is that cheating? Cheater means to defy Srila Prabhuapada and his answer. They openly do this, therefore they are maha cheaters, and their lives are an open book to the results of such cheating. You can cheat a few qullible people, you can cheat yourself, but you can't cheat Krsna and His pure devotee and get away with it. Hare Krishna
Love Krsna
Hare Krsna LoveKrsna;
All glories to our beloved eternal spiritual master Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for including the link to this wonderful website. I have been told about it by others but did not have the correct address to find it.
I was most happy to see it in this post.
Open eyes, open mind and open heart and you will see the truth.
Haribol
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Srila Prabhupada's verdict-
HIS ANSWER - officiating acharyas - same as ritviks. This is his immediate answer to the question. We accept his answer. This is the only proof we need. If he wanted regular gurus, its only on his order ["on my order" "when I order"] and there is absolutely no record of his order for regular gurus. But for officiating acharyas, the 7/9 letter is documented proof of his order of such.
This is confirmed by Tamal himself-
Tamal - "Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn't appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus." (ISKCON Journal 1990 page 53).
The only appoint was ritviks, never any gurus.
This is fully explained on this website-
http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/compilation.htm
Accept or don't accept. Everyone has the right to their own view, and 1000's of us accept the answer of "officiating acaryas." This is our right.
Otherwise, why did Srila Prabhupada say "officiating acaryas?" No anti-ritvik can answer this. They only want to ignore this answer. They claim he ordered gurus, but there's no evidence of such order, and Tamal clearly states this as a fact.
Love Krishna
the way of initiation IS a major vaishnava conclusion and ritvikism changes it.
You say Srila Prabhupada did, but such a major change He would be putting it on His books, not just in a very arguable conversation.
When Srila Prabhupada said "they will be their disciples", is that not clear enough?
You can put upside down any argument and rethoric can change white to black.
Think about, if ritviks are the in charge of initiations, then, who says who is ritvik?
In case Srila Prabhupada did appoint ritviks, then after that, who says who is ritvik?
Also, accepting formally a guru, means a 2 way contract. You accept Srila Prabhupada as guru, but how you know he accepts you as formal disciple.
In fact there is no need of this, cause you have to have a full fledged living guru apart from the shelter that Srila Prabhupada gives to all as param guru.
Another thing is if you find it or if it is available, but the principle still stands.
I am not against anybody personally or making sides with anyone, just writting for the sake of truth.
I used to believe all this also, but now I realize that Hinduism is a creation of man. And this can even be seen today, as the Hindus continue to add more and more "gods" to their previous ones. Examples of these are: couple hundred years ago they added Swaminarayan because he claimed to be a devotee of Krishna, now they're adding Sai Baba and believe it or not, after a hundred or so years ago, if this keeps up, most Hinduis WILL continue their lives believing that this is another avatar of "God". And if you step back and look at the whole scene from a wide angle, you will come to realize that Hindus did not do this only recently, but have continued to do this for their entire history, however long that may have been.
I say "however long that may have been" because, whether you realize it or not, India does not have much of a recorded history. The only recorded history it does have is the books that they have, the Upanishads, Ramayan, Mahabharata, etc. And there are over a hundred of these books, and who knows how many people wrote them. And most of them collide and go against each other...at least many do; an example of this would be found in what the followers of Vishnu(Krishna, Ram, etc) believe and what the followers of Shiva believe in. Anyways, India does not even have a recorded history from as back as 500 years, how could it have recorded history from thousands of years back? An example of this is clearly seen in trying to find the true age of Mira Baai, a devotee, when she died. And come to find out, it seems she lived to be about 120 or 125 years old...true? I think not, just another myth added to history by Hindus.
And now I have come to realize that my life had been going in one direction, and that was to find truth in life. And that truth has not come from following Hinduism, but rather from abandoning it. Now I have realized that the only true God is the God that is spoken of in The Holy Bible. And if you don't think that this is possible, then look at the multitudes of prophesies that have been fulfilled from the Holy Bible, and you will come to realize that the Holy Bible is the only true message of God, the only infallible Word of God.
Of course there are Hindus that say that both Christianity and Hinduism are true. From the Hindu perspective, this is true because in Hinduism, as many "gods" as its followers want can be added. But, for this claim to be true, it must have to agree from the other side of the issue also, in this case, Christianity. And, whether you like to accept or not, Hinduism is a religion of idols, where Hindus worship deities, statues, murtis, etc. Of course these idols represent the "real Hindu gods", but that is not the point here. For both Hinduism and Christianity to be true, Christianity must also allow this point, allow this way of worship. Instead, in the Holy Bible, God has clearly declared, "You shall not worship idols!"
So, this means that either Hinduism or Christianity must be true. And one must decide which one, for in essence you cannot say that both are true. And if you look at Hinduism itself, you must step back from the entire scene and take a fresh look at it and look at what Hindus as a whole believe in, not just what some sects believe in.
You make the choice. It's your eternity that's on the line. It's a matter of where you are going to live for an eternity when you die. Don't make the wrong choice...do research until you are content with the answer, and look at both sides of the issue. And please, do the research on your own, please do not go to a guru or a church leader. If you are truly sincere, you will see the truth.
Thank you for reading this,
God bless you!!!
all is said, then. Good luck to all of us in our way to Krisna.
the way of initiation IS a major vaishnava conclusion and ritvikism changes it.
LK - A major conclusion, but the method of representing the pure devotee, when he sets up this system, that is not a major change. There is no change, because the diksa is still taken from the pure devotee, the founder acharya, who sets up the system. The ritvik priest assists the execution. Srila Prabhupada did it that way prior to 77, and nothing has changed in the ritvik system.
butter
You say Srila Prabhupada did, but such a major change He would be putting it on His books, not just in a very arguable conversation.
LK Who are we to say how Srila Prabhupada should have done it. This may be your opinion of how he should have done it. But his letter and verbal recorded answer is still another way. The most accurate method for attaining specific knowledge from the spiritual master is by direct inquiry, and his direct answer is the purest form of his instructions and his order. This system of ritvik initiation had already been in place since the beginning of the movement, as this is how Srila Prabhupada always initiated, through the TP and fire sacrifice from some leading disciple doing the ritvik function, the fire yajna, even if Srila Prabhupada was on the other side of the planet. Some disciples never met Srila Prabhupada physically. So the method was nothing new. Srila Prabhupada never described this method in his books, because the method is not a major change from the process of getting diksa from the pure devotee. The GBC came to him and asked him this question [after no longer with us ] because there was some confusion. They already talked about ritviks before 5/28 and they wanted to know exactly what Srila Prabhupada wanted, and he told them point blank, officiating acaryas. Bas. 1000's of us accept his answer, some don't. But they should respect those who do and not fight over this.
Butter
When Srila Prabhupada said "they will be their disciples", is that not clear enough?
LK You haven't read the webpage on this, have you? Yes, clear enough, IF Srila Prabhupada ORDERS them to be regular gurus. But if you don't follow the logical turns of the conversation [as explained on that website] then you come to absurd conclusions. Like this one, how does the term "officiating acharyas" have anything to do with the regular guru who "has own disciple?" Your solution is just to ignore the fact that Srila Prabhupada said "officiating acharyas." But he said it, and this ritvik acharya has nothing to do with the latter regular guru with own disciples. They are contradictory entities. Srila Prabhupada knew that, he knew that ritviks don't have their own disciples. SO, WHY would he first say "officiating acharyas?" Is anyone suggesting that Srila Prabhupada was confused? No he wasn't. He said exactly what he meant, and that was his answer. the remainer was about the POSSIBILITY of him ordering reg gurus, because that's what Tamal wanted to hear. Tamal kept confusing the conversation [read the webpage ] and so Srila Prabhupada sort of said, "OK, if I ORDER you to be guru, then there's own disciples and so on." Srila Prabhupada could not have possibly meant that ritviks will have their own disciples. Proof? The 7/9 letter is the practical conclusion of the 5.28 conversation, as said in the letter itself, and the letter spells out what a ritvik is, how disciples are Srila Prabhupada's. And the testiment of will also says that Srila Prabhupada will always have disciples.
butter
You can put upside down any argument and rethoric can change white to black.
LK Yes, there is great confusion. Perhaps because 150 tapes are missing from 1997, most of them after the 7/9 letter. We think its sabotage. But as to your above statement, no, we are not doing upside down logic and rhetoric. Srila Prabhupada's answer to the question is very clear. His words about the regular guru is very clear, ie., they will happen only WHEN he orders, and not otherwise. 1000's of disciples accept that, and they have the right to believe like that. You may not believe, but you should extend the courtesy to others to accept that answer.
Butter
Think about, if ritviks are the in charge of initiations, then, who says who is ritvik?
LK small point. That's the way initiations were always done during Srila Prabhupada's presence on the planet. Various TP and sanyasis were doing the function of ritvik.
Butter
In case Srila Prabhupada did appoint ritviks, then after that, who says who is ritvik?
LK He did appoint them, as admitted by Tamal. And, Srila Prabhupada said the ritviks will be increased in the future. They can be added, by who is immaterial.
Butter
Also, accepting formally a guru, means a 2 way contract. You accept Srila Prabhupada as guru, but how you know he accepts you as formal disciple.
LK How did he know before? Through the recommendation of the TP, plain and simple.
Butter
In fact there is no need of this, cause you have to have a full fledged living guru apart from the shelter that Srila Prabhupada gives to all as param guru.
LK Srila Prabhupada never says you have to have a "living guru" you will never find that in the folio, and Srila Prabhupada IS a "living guru" he is not dead.
butter
Another thing is if you find it or if it is available, but the principle still stands.
LK the principle always stands, that diksa must come from a pure maha-bhagavata acharya, not from a guru who may or may not fall down.
butter
I am not against anybody personally or making sides with anyone, just writting for the sake of truth.
LK Glad to hear that. This is a good exercise in expression of our convictions, Hare Krishna
Love Krsna
The ritvik conclusion is that we need to worship the pure devotees, aka Prabhupada. Whereas the GBC and Gaudiya Matha idea, as we have all seen, is to forward deviants as pure devotees and "cause havoc" as Srila Prabhupada succinctly summarizes. So that is the first problem, all of the opponents of the ritvik idea thus far have forwarded conditioned souls as pure devotees, and created whacko cults, just as BG Narasingha's cult did in 1936 when they forwarded Vasudeva, who was into "sex and sex" says Prabhupada. thanks ys purajana dasa :D
Please forgive me for reposting this, as I don't usually do that. However, I suspected maybe Govindaram never read it because it was not on this thread. Therefore I am putting it here to hopefully explain some things to him, as well as maybe bring some peace between all parties concerned. That would be nice.
From link/thread:
http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=19
Govindaram wrote:
Hare Krsna,
(snip)
Letter to: Madhusudana
--
Navadvipa
2 November, 1967
67-11-02
My Dear Madhusudana,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 24th October 1967. Kirtanananda was awarded the position of a Sannyasi because he wanted it although I could understand it that he wanted to be a spiritual master himself. Lord Caitanya wanted every one should be a spiritual master provided he follows the order of Lord Caitanya.
The Lord's mission was to defeat the Mayavada philosophy and establish in the philosophy of Krishna consciousness because Krishna is the Supreme Lord the Personality of Godhead. Anyone following the order of Lord Caitanya under the guidance of His bona fide representative, can become a spiritual master and I wish that in my absence all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master to spread Krishna Consciousness throughout the whole world. I want it but Kirtanananda was too much puffed up and artificially he took up a certificate from me that he has been awarded the order to a Sannyasi, In the spiritual field nobody can become a bona fide spiritual master by dissatisfying his spiritual master. It is said that one can satisfy the Supreme Lord simply by satisfying the spiritual master and one who dissatisfies the spiritual master has no place in the spiritual world.
Kirtanananda wanted to become a spiritual master by dissatisfying his spiritual master and as such he has fallen down. He cannot say anything genuine any more till he has had revival of his pure consciousness in the spiritual world as mentioned above. Differentiation between spirit & matter is clear & practical experience, when a living creature is dead no amount of material advancement of science can bring back a dead body to life. The thing which is absent from a dead body is the spirit. As there is individual spirit in individual body, similarly there is the Great Spirit in the universal material form.
(snip - see above for full letter)
Your ever well-wisher
A. C. Bhaktivedanta, Swami
My Dear GovindaRam,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I do not know if I can bring peace to the debate going on here, but one thing I notice is much of it seems more like a personality clash or personal differences. I hope that won't be transgressed over to me or what I am trying to explain.
You do not have to accept what I explain either. Simply I ask that you give me a chance.
I agree Prabhupada said, back in the early 70s, that his disciples should also make disciples. I wish it were that simple that all we need to do is look at some of the letters and quotes from Prabhupada but not the others. Unforatuntely, its not. Because by omitting them, various important issues are left out if we dont view the other multitude of points Prabhupada said on this very important position.
Please do not misunderstand me. If you can find for me, a guru who meets up to what Prabhupada described as qualifications for guru, I will have no problem with that person. So far, that has not been seen. What has been factually seen in real life, is fall down after fall down. I'm a realist. No offence intended, but for myself, I find it difficult to accept as an authority over my soul, those who keep falling down themselves.
If you notice, in the above letter which you quoted, right after Prabhupada states he wants his disciples to become guru, he next states:
"but Kirtanananda was too much puffed up and artificially he took up a certificate from me that he has been awarded the order to a Sannyasi, In the spiritual field nobody can become a bona fide spiritual master by dissatisfying his spiritual master. "
I only point this out because we need to see Prabhupada also made it clear that for someone to take disciples, they must be qualified. It is not merely because they are his disciples that they can take on disciples; rather they must live the life perfectly as well as reveal high spiriutal qualification. The point I am trying to make here (basically) is about the first part of the quote I used.
The second part is that a devotee must not dissatisify his spiriutal master or else they can not beocme a bona fide guru themselves. This is important point because tho Prabhupada did indeed say he wanted his disciples to become guru, however he later changed his mind, therefore the modern gurus are dissatisifying Prabhupada by going against his instruction. You may not agree and that is your right. Simply, this is my understanding and my belief for all I have studied on this, and I have studied it a lot.
I remember once, when Prabhupada was sick, how he replied to Bhavananda they were all just children and not ready to take over. Although that is a lesser point. Mostly, I go by his Last Will and Testament. Devotees can change and manipulate all sorts of documentation, recordings and such. But due to the law being in charge of his Will, they could not get their hands on it. Though they tried.
In his Will he made it very clear that the future disciples will be his. I dont have the exact quote on hand. Does someone else? Anyway, all I humbly ask is that you consider this perspective.
Wishing you well.
Peace.
Your Fallen Servant,
Devotee
If you can find for me, a guru who meets up to what Prabhupada described as qualifications for guru, I will have no problem with that person.
If you can find somebody who meets the standard of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati/Bhaktivinoda Thakura/etc etc, what is the point you are making? Every pure devotee has their own personality.
My thought so far on this Issue of Ritvik:
Prabhupada is my Siksa Guru, that means he is prominant or not, there is no difference between Siksa/Diska Guru, as far as I am concerned there are still Pure devotees walking this Earth. Bas. Haribol.
If you can find for me, a guru who meets up to what Prabhupada described as qualifications for guru, I will have no problem with that person.
If you can find somebody who meets the standard of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati/Bhaktivinoda Thakura/etc etc, what is the point you are making? Every pure devotee has their own personality.
Haribol prabhu,
Thank you for your reply.
I do not understand why you don't see the point I am making. Maybe you could clear that up for me.
Regarding personality, that has nothing to do with qualification. I am not saying if you can find me a guru who meets up to what Prabhuapda described as good personality for guru, I will accept, no, but one who meets up to the very specific qualifications Prabhupada instructed us to look for in anyone, any personality, that they all must meet up to if they want to accept the post of guru. Repeatedly he pointed out, guru is no cheap thing and one must be qualified to be one.
My thought so far on this Issue of Ritvik:
Prabhupada is my Siksa Guru, that means he is prominant or not, there is no difference between Siksa/Diska Guru, as far as I am concerned there are still Pure devotees walking this Earth. Bas. Haribol.
I never said there are not pure devotees still walking the earth. I would agree with you there. But we do not know who they are. Besides, Prabhupada has given specific instructions to "us" that we are to accept him as our guru. If this is not so, then please explain away what he says in his last Will to me.
Wishing you well.
Your Servant,
Devotee 100
Dear Devotee108;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All gloriest to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
People are being blinded by the iskCON propaganda machine. Srila Prabhupada's instructions were pure and clear yet these same instructions are being hidden and twisted in meaning by those who have much to lose if everyone saw Srila Prabhupada's instructions as they are.
I want to refer to another post I made where I explain that Srila Prabhupada is to be the diksa guru for ISKCON only.
http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=41
Until a person reads (I mean truly reads) Srila Prabhupada's will, the letters, the conversations and the Final Order which pulls it altogther then it is fruitless to keep going over and over the same things.
There are only so many ways to say exactly the same thing over again.
My request to those who oppose us: Ritviks are devotees and some have been devotees since the very first days that Srila Prabhuapda started His mission in the west. Please stop demonizing devotees who follow Prabhupada's orders, chant the Holy Names and serve Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. Look in the mirror and see what you are doing to serve.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Dear Devotee108;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All gloriest to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
People are being blinded by the iskCON propaganda machine. Srila Prabhupada's instructions were pure and clear yet these same instructions are being hidden and twisted in meaning by those who have much to lose if everyone saw Srila Prabhupada's instructions as they are.
I want to refer to another post I made where I explain that Srila Prabhupada is to be the diksa guru for ISKCON only.
http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=41
Until a person reads (I mean truly reads) Srila Prabhupada's will, the letters, the conversations and the Final Order which pulls it altogther then it is fruitless to keep going over and over the same things.
There are only so many ways to say exactly the same thing over again.
My request to those who oppose us: Ritviks are devotees and some have been devotees since the very first days that Srila Prabhuapda started His mission in the west. Please stop demonizing devotees who follow Prabhupada's orders, chant the Holy Names and serve Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. Look in the mirror and see what you are doing to serve.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Rukmini prabhu, thank you. You make some very wonderful points.
I guess I like to focus on Prabhupada's Will cuz ISKCON authorities were able to get their hands on so many documents and tapes, tampering with them, and some devotees believe they did not. But when it comes to his Will, try as they did, they were unableto get their hands on it to change it. They tried, this I know (sad, isn't it?!), but I also know Prabhupada disapproved of the changes 'they' made which they tried to get him to sign. He refused to sign, so they had to draw up another Will. When it read the way 'he' wanted it to read, only then would he sign in. And since it was not an iskcon document but a legal document, no one has ever been able to tamper with it, thank God.
I suppose its why I like to birng this topic up. Because some may use shastra, or recordings that were tampered with (even tho nondevotee, nonbiased labortories examined them and said they were spliced, etc, etc), accepting these things for evidence against ritvik, but if they let down their false ego and attachment to being right, and let go of personal anger, then sincerity can lead them to understanding Prabhupada's instruction to us are specifically right there in his Will.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Haribol prabhu;
I fully agree that Srila Prabhupada's will is the best evidence as it is a legal document.
Actually, iskCON has released several different transcriptions of the recorded conversations (as if no one would notice! LOL...) and I have read reports concerning the doctoring and splicing of the tapes.
This makes so much suspect that comes out of iskCON which includes the recordings of Prabhupada's lectures and other conversations. We may never know how many of these have also been tampered with to project only what the unauthorized gurus wish for us to hear.
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Dear Devotee108;
Please accept my humble obeisances. All gloriest to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.
People are being blinded by the iskCON propaganda machine. Srila Prabhupada's instructions were pure and clear yet these same instructions are being hidden and twisted in meaning by those who have much to lose if everyone saw Srila Prabhupada's instructions as they are.
I want to refer to another post I made where I explain that Srila Prabhupada is to be the diksa guru for ISKCON only.
http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=41
Until a person reads (I mean truly reads) Srila Prabhupada's will, the letters, the conversations and the Final Order which pulls it altogther then it is fruitless to keep going over and over the same things.
There are only so many ways to say exactly the same thing over again.
My request to those who oppose us: Ritviks are devotees and some have been devotees since the very first days that Srila Prabhuapda started His mission in the west. Please stop demonizing devotees who follow Prabhupada's orders, chant the Holy Names and serve Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. Look in the mirror and see what you are doing to serve.
your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Rukmini prabhu, thank you. You make some very wonderful points.
I guess I like to focus on Prabhupada's Will cuz ISKCON authorities were able to get their hands on so many documents and tapes, tampering with them, and some devotees believe they did not. But when it comes to his Will, try as they did, they were unableto get their hands on it to change it. They tried, this I know (sad, isn't it?!), but I also know Prabhupada disapproved of the changes 'they' made which they tried to get him to sign. He refused to sign, so they had to draw up another Will. When it read the way 'he' wanted it to read, only then would he sign in. And since it was not an iskcon document but a legal document, no one has ever been able to tamper with it, thank God.
I suppose its why I like to birng this topic up. Because some may use shastra, or recordings that were tampered with (even tho nondevotee, nonbiased labortories examined them and said they were spliced, etc, etc), accepting these things for evidence against ritvik, but if they let down their false ego and attachment to being right, and let go of personal anger, then sincerity can lead them to understanding Prabhupada's instruction to us are specifically right there in his Will.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Haribol prabhu;
I fully agree that Srila Prabhupada's will is the best evidence as it is a legal document.
Actually, iskCON has released several different transcriptions of the recorded conversations (as if no one would notice! LOL...) and I have read reports concerning the doctoring and splicing of the tapes.
This makes so much suspect that comes out of iskCON which includes the recordings of Prabhupada's lectures and other conversations. We may never know how many of these have also been tampered with to project only what the unauthorized gurus wish for us to hear.
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Haribol Rukmini prabhu,
With all the doctoring, editing, and messing around with the tapes, or anything for that matter, at the very least it makes sense to question why iskcon authorities would desire to do this in the first place. If it is such a strong fact that Prabhupada did not instruct ritvik, then why tamper with a thing? Even if a devotee doesn't fully accept or believe in the ritvik idea, I would think they at least should find it suspicious behavior that iskcon authorities ever tampered with anything at all, and even once, what to speak of many times.
One devotee in Alachua (Bhagavat das) was personally present in Prabhupada's last days in India. Said he was specificially instructed to push the 'record' button if Prabhupada spoke even one word. Even one. They diid not want to miss a thing! Bhagavat said there were many, MANY tapes of Prabhuapada's last days, last instructions. And now they are gone. Poof! Into thin air. Where are they? Why are they gone? Why would iskcon do such a thing? At least these questions should be asked, and answered.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Hare Krsna prabhu;
Excellent point. If the iskCON authorities are so confident that they are right about Prabhupada's last orders - why indeed the tampering and changes? I include the book changes in this thought because many of the changes are geared towards statements that Prabhupada made about guru which would undermine the unauthorized gurus of today.
Your story about the missing tapes is most distressing and not the first time I have heard of this type of thing happening.
I have heard that many devotees were interviewed for the Lilamrita and a mysterious fire in a shed where the documents were being stored destroyed these interviews.
I had never read any of the tampered with books until several years ago. My copy of Bhagavad Gita As It Is actually fell apart on me and I came across a new edition copy in a used book store. I innocently bought it and brought home thinking that surely only the cover was different. Well, quite quickly I discovered changes and again, innocently sent an email off to the GBC asking why someone was printing Bhagavad Gita As It Is differently. Let's just say the response I received was not at all what I expected and I made a mental note to self that I was never going to do that again!!! LOL....... :P
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Haribol Rukmini prabhu,
With all the doctoring, editing, and messing around with the tapes, or anything for that matter, at the very least it makes sense to question why iskcon authorities would desire to do this in the first place. If it is such a strong fact that Prabhupada did not instruct ritvik, then why tamper with a thing? Even if a devotee doesn't fully accept or believe in the ritvik idea, I would think they at least should find it suspicious behavior that iskcon authorities ever tampered with anything at all, and even once, what to speak of many times.
One devotee in Alachua (Bhagavat das) was personally present in Prabhupada's last days in India. Said he was specificially instructed to push the 'record' button if Prabhupada spoke even one word. Even one. They diid not want to miss a thing! Bhagavat said there were many, MANY tapes of Prabhuapada's last days, last instructions. And now they are gone. Poof! Into thin air. Where are they? Why are they gone? Why would iskcon do such a thing? At least these questions should be asked, and answered.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
You sent an email to the GBC? LOL ROFL You were a trusting soul, now, weren't you? :) But that's good. We want our core to be like that. Only that once we uncover someone or some team (GBC) not to be worthy of such trust, we learn there are better areas to place it in.
Yes, I also heard of that fire in Gita Nagari. Tho I never could get the bottom line on it with truth. Some say they were set on purpose, others claim they genuinely were an acciedent. So far, I have not read enough info either direction to be sure. Ultimately it doesn't matter, at least not for thsoe of us who have accepted Prabhupada. We have all his words in his (unchanged) books. Tho it would have been nice to have those stories of personal association! There is a book out on that now tho. Its called the Prabhupada Memories books. Very good!
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Hare Krsna prabhu;
Excellent point. If the iskCON authorities are so confident that they are right about Prabhupada's last orders - why indeed the tampering and changes? I include the book changes in this thought because many of the changes are geared towards statements that Prabhupada made about guru which would undermine the unauthorized gurus of today.
Oops. Almsot forgot this. I had something important to say on this.
I know someone personally who was present at one of the meetings when the book changes were going on. This person was only the menial servant, or serving out prasadam, so maybe they (GBC, etc) thought it was safe to reveal their nonsense in front of them and he would not tell. However, all devotees are, bottom line, devotees. He did tell, and said to me that while serving prasad he personally witnessed book changes based on.............. not on pundit, not on spellng or encyclopedia research or dictionary, not double checking with shastra or Prabhupada quotes .... but a voting of which GBC, etc, "liked" this or didn't like it. He said there would be a raise of hands. "OK, who likes this verse this way?" and "Now, who likes it that way?" So shocking, what they have done to Prabhupada's books! And yes, I agree, many changes were to facilitate the new gurus and disipate the ritvik system Prabhuapda so very much wanted.
Your Servant,
Devoee 108
Yes, I was very isolated and had only just gotten the internet so I was very naive and did not not much of a clue what was going on at the time. I learned very quickly however after that incident.
I love reading the memories of devotees and would be very interested in this book that you speak of.
You sent an email to the GBC? LOL ROFL You were a trusting soul, now, weren't you? :) But that's good. We want our core to be like that. Only that once we uncover someone or some team (GBC) not to be worthy of such trust, we learn there are better areas to place it in.
Yes, I also heard of that fire in Gita Nagari. Tho I never could get the bottom line on it with truth. Some say they were set on purpose, others claim they genuinely were an acciedent. So far, I have not read enough info either direction to be sure. Ultimately it doesn't matter, at least not for thsoe of us who have accepted Prabhupada. We have all his words in his (unchanged) books. Tho it would have been nice to have those stories of personal association! There is a book out on that now tho. Its called the Prabhupada Memories books. Very good!
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
These truths and incidents, like the one you speak of here, need to be broadcast to all the devotees. These are the voices we want to hear! But fear sadly keeps so many silent. Who is to say how many heard such things as you speak of here but out of intense fear have been silenced.
Hare Krsna prabhu;
Excellent point. If the iskCON authorities are so confident that they are right about Prabhupada's last orders - why indeed the tampering and changes? I include the book changes in this thought because many of the changes are geared towards statements that Prabhupada made about guru which would undermine the unauthorized gurus of today.
Oops. Almsot forgot this. I had something important to say on this.
I know someone personally who was present at one of the meetings when the book changes were going on. This person was only the menial servant, or serving out prasadam, so maybe they (GBC, etc) thought it was safe to reveal their nonsense in front of them and he would not tell. However, all devotees are, bottom line, devotees. He did tell, and said to me that while serving prasad he personally witnessed book changes based on.............. not on pundit, not on spellng or encyclopedia research or dictionary, not double checking with shastra or Prabhupada quotes .... but a voting of which GBC, etc, "liked" this or didn't like it. He said there would be a raise of hands. "OK, who likes this verse this way?" and "Now, who likes it that way?" So shocking, what they have done to Prabhupada's books! And yes, I agree, many changes were to facilitate the new gurus and disipate the ritvik system Prabhuapda so very much wanted.
Your Servant,
Devoee 108
Regarding personality, that has nothing to do with qualification. I am not saying if you can find me a guru who meets up to what Prabhuapda described as good personality for guru, I will accept, no, but one who meets up to the very specific qualifications Prabhupada instructed us to look for in anyone, any personality, that they all must meet up to if they want to accept the post of guru. Repeatedly he pointed out, guru is no cheap thing and one must be qualified to be one.
This means there are still Pure devotees walking this Earth, whether you can see or not is not my problem, that doesn't say we change words of Guru to suit our own needs, unless you have anything new to say, I am finished here,
Ps. Ritviks are no the only ones who follow Prabhupada, there are many disciples who risk there downfall by accepting sikyas, this is not easy business, I find it amazing the sites which talk about Prabhupada disciple fall-downs.
All your arrogant 'Please read again' statements are getting this conversation nowhere, I feel like I am talking to a child, of-course you are being 17 years old.
Unless anything is said, by anyone, which is new, I am gone from here; there is no need for me to associate here. Hare Krsna
[quote]Devotee 108 wrote
Regarding personality, that has nothing to do with qualification. I am not saying if you can find me a guru who meets up to what Prabhuapda described as good personality for guru, I will accept, no, but one who meets up to the very specific qualifications Prabhupada instructed us to look for in anyone, any personality, that they all must meet up to if they want to accept the post of guru. Repeatedly he pointed out, guru is no cheap thing and one must be qualified to be one.
Govindaram wrote
This means there are still Pure devotees walking this Earth,
To which I have all ready agreed.
whether you can see or not is not my problem,
You are taking things personally. Mine is not a personal attack.
Its not a matter of whether I can see or you can see, but that few, if any, can see, and this is why we have Prabhupada. HE can see. And what he saw were many weak devotees in his movement, not strong enough to take over unless he himself remained guru. Not talking about other groups or devotees in the world, but iskcon.
that doesn't say we change words of Guru to suit our own needs,
Exactly. So why did the iskcon authorities do that?
unless you have anything new to say, I am finished here,
You have yet to explain away what Prabhupada wrote in his Will. You're right, I have nothing new to say. I stick with the old stuff Prabhupada said.
Ps. Ritviks are no the only ones who follow Prabhupada,
There is a misunderstanding that all ritviks are the same, come out of the same mold. This is a mistake.
there are many disciples who risk there downfall by accepting sikyas,
Let's not try to glorify them for taking such a risk. There is no place in shastra ever that it says to risk your soul. Prabhupada himself did not risk his soul, Bhaktisiddhanta did not risk his soul, and so on. Sometimes there is glorification for risking ones own body, but never ever do we read how wonderful someone was for putting their soul at risk. They risk their downfall by going 'against' the insturctions of Prabhupada, which simultaneously is the reason they fall down in the first place.
this is not easy business,
Exactly why Prabhupada did not tell them to do it.
I find it amazing the sites which talk about Prabhupada disciple fall-downs.
Disciple fall down and guru fall down are two different topics.
All your arrogant
How dare you call me arrogant when I have been polite and respectful t you!
Try not to take things so personally that you must lash out like this in return. I am not trying to offend you. This is just about trying to gain a correct philosophical understanding. Devotees have done this for centuries and more, but it is only successful when done properly.
'Please read again' statements
You will have to be more specfic, as I do not recall anything I said to please read again. But I am not saying I didn't, only that I am not clear on what you are talking about.
are getting this conversation nowhere, I feel like I am talking to a child, of-course you are being 17 years old.
Again, more insults! How is that Vaisnava? And you wonder why you get nowhere with us.
Unless anything is said, by anyone, which is new, I am gone from here; there is no need for me to associate here. Hare Krsna
Sorry, I can't concoct anything "new" to please you. I can only repeat that "old" stuff from Prabhupada. Guess it gets rather boring, especially to those who rather fight it then surrender to it.
Devotee 108
These truths and incidents, like the one you speak of here, need to be broadcast to all the devotees. These are the voices we want to hear! But fear sadly keeps so many silent. Who is to say how many heard such things as you speak of here but out of intense fear have been silenced.
Exactly it! The devotee who told me this, was fearful to let very many know. Matter of fact, for many, MANY years he kept it inside. Only a few years ago did he start telling a few more devotees. Still, he has not widly broadcast it because of fear. The fact is, he is correct. If the 'aurhtories' find out he is saying such a thing, they will ostricize him or wose, like they did Gauridas, etc.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Disciple fall down and guru fall down are two different topics.
So what if the Ritvik Priests fall-down?
What’s the difference between what you are doing and Iskcon?
The proxy the Ritvik Priest has given is void yes?
The Diksa {from disciplic succession} given by disciple of Prabhupada is Void?
Answer above questions.
____
The ritvik priests who act, as proxy must be pure, AS IN have the permission to act that way, if not then the qualification of purity must be there...
The Argument is not the above, as in OUR Sampradaya Ritvik 'proxy' has never been done; there are no hints in Prabhupada books, that he indeed desired this, just few letters which devotees and non-devotees have misrepresented with flowery language.
Also to represent Iskcon as different Sampradaya from Gaudiya Math is to say we belong in some hybrid Sampradaya, so this argument will not stick, devotees say 'Prabhupada told us to stay away from his Godbrothers' yes indeed at that time so disciples would not deviate here there and everywhere, with knowledge now of the importance of Preaching, which Gaudiya Math has taken-up, there should be no problem.
The fact to say His Divine Grace would desire for us to become 'Institutionalised' just in Iskcon and be apart from Gaudiya Math is not right, as long as we don't work together the preaching of Cult of Caitanya won't be effective, across the World.
Now the questions arises will Gaudiya Math accept your proxy initiations?
I think you already know the answer to that.
Haribol/
Dear Devotee108 prabhu;
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, our beloved eternal spiritual master whose instructions are those that we should always follow in His organization.
Hare Krsna.
Prabhu; how many different ways can we say the same thing over and over?
He only wants to argue even tho he keeps saying he is done with us and never coming back again!
I am trying to figure out who he is calling 17 years old. LOL...
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
[quote]Disciple fall down and guru fall down are two different topics.
So what if the Ritvik Priests fall-down?
This is actually a good question. Some ritviks feel the ritvik officiating acarya must be some type of guru and never fall down. Others feel he just does the ceremony then walks away cuz the disciple isn't his in the first place. This needs to be discussed. But the bottom line is, regardless of which side one leans toward, unlike the iskcon gurus who fell down which resulted in many disciples freaking out and loosing it, some giving up their spiriutal life because their faith was wrapped up in their guru, with the ritvik priest, should he fall down, then at least the devotee still has their link thru Prabhupada. That is the most important point.
What’s the difference between what you are doing and Iskcon?
Not sure in which way you don't see the difference, but the major difference is that we are following Prabhuapda's instructions on this, whereaas they went out of their way to mask and hide his instructions. The rest, well, he knows what he's doing, so if what we are doing appears the same as iskcon, it is only an 'appearance' and not really the same at all.
The proxy the Ritvik Priest has given is void yes?
Now you're being sarcastic again.
The Diksa {from disciplic succession} given by disciple of Prabhupada is Void?
More sarcasm. And for a moment, with your first questions, I thought you were being sincere and proper.
Answer above questions.
Just did. And, I can answer any of your questions, but they may not please your senses. Only, I must follow Prabhupada regardless of who likes or dislikes me for it.
____
The ritvik priests who act, as proxy must be pure, AS IN have the permission to act that way, if not then the qualification of purity must be there...
The Argument is not the above, as in OUR Sampradaya Ritvik 'proxy' has never been done;
Actually, thats not true. It has been done. When you read the dates of the appearances and disappearances of the acarayas in our sampradaya, you do not see each and every one of them leaving this world with the very next one in line appearing and at right age to take disciples, on the heals of their passing. Even, there are often big gaps. So how did the initiations go on? The ritvik system was used and because it was used, you will not see anyone else trying to put THEIR name along with the names of these other great pure devotee acarays. You will not see their names listed as part of our parampara system because they do not try to take credit.
However, even from the point of view that all I've just said were not true, we follow what Prabhupada says and have no right to judge it, deciding its wrong, was never done before, etc. He said do, so we do. Bas. No mental speculation involved. When the pure devotee says jump, we say "How high?"
there are no hints in Prabhupada books,
And now we use Prabhuapdas own books against him. We think we know sanskrit and shastra better than he does. He gives us a very specific instruction, but we say, "No Prabhupada, its not in your books, therefore we do not accept this instruction from you." How puffed up we have become. Nevermind that he sent a very specific letter with instructions to ALL the temples and devotees to utilize ritvik, nevermind that so many 'authorities' tampered with the books in such a way as to make themselves and new guru's sound rightly situatiated even tho they changed the meaning of Prabhupada's words, and never mind that it is clearly in Prabhupadas Will, a legal document no one can change (thank God!) which states everyone shall be his disciple, lets keep up the arguement and ignore all that.
that he indeed desired this,
I dont know why it is unclear to you that he not only desireed it, but went out of his way to give this instruction, but that is indeed what happened.
just few letters which devotees and non-devotees have misrepresented with flowery language.
First, it is not limited to a few letters.
Secondly, they were not sent to only a few devotees, but to each and every temple, therefore meant for everyone.
Lastly, if it were only a few letters, there is that stubbron Will of his that keeps telling it like it is. No one has ever been able to prove it wrong either. Not even the GBC. They can't argue with it.
Also to represent Iskcon as different Sampradaya from Gaudiya Math is to say we belong in some hybrid Sampradaya,
The genuine, original iskcon, no one is disrespecting, but what is going on now, I once read where even Prabhupada began to consider giving up on iskcon. He was not pleased with the management of it at all. It is no longer his movement.
so this argument will not stick, devotees say 'Prabhupada told us to stay away from his Godbrothers' yes indeed at that time
Not 'at that time.' He would have clarified that. He never said at that time. When I was trained up I was taught that when given an instruction, to take that instruction eternally unless told otherwise. You will have to provide me with a quote or something else that proves he only meant 'at that time.' Otherwise, I'm sticking with his words I DO have on this topic.
To be honest, that just sounds like rationalization from the Gaudiya Math. But read what Prabhupada says over and over. He was so hurt by his godbrothers, which does not mean he didn't love them, matter of fact it means he did, but it still means he MEANT it seriously when he said stay away. His hurt was a spirutal hurt we can't understand, but to go against that instruction would be hurting him again.
so disciples would not deviate here there and everywhere, with knowledge now of the importance of Preaching, which Gaudiya Math has taken-up, there should be no problem.
Prabhupada said Gaudiya Math wants his movement. They do little preaching, but come to our temples where we did all the preaching, we picked up the book bags and went out bringing back souls to surrender, we train them up, then Gaudiya Math reaps our fruits. This alone is not nice. What to speak of so many of the Gaudiya Math allow illicit sex, intoxication or other deviations. Not all, and not all the same, but it is clearly going on. Prabhupada is much more strict, and one reason people go over to Gaudiya Math is they do not want to be THAT strict.
The fact to say His Divine Grace would desire for us to become 'Institutionalised'
Where did he say 'instutitionalized?" Maybe you read something I have not, but I've near read him to say that. Tho the current iskcon authorities are doing that.
just in Iskcon and be apart from Gaudiya Math is not right,
Then you are disagreeing with Prabhupada, because he clearly made a break way back in the very beginning from Gaudiya Math, and has never once, not once, returned to them. We do not see one example of him dong that. What to speak of instruction. He clearly never gave an instruction of that nature, but did indeed instruct to stay away. So you may not like that and view it as separatism, but the fact is, Prabhuapda was just more strict and keep very close in the following of his guru majaraja.
as long as we don't work together the preaching of Cult of Caitanya won't be effective, across the World.
Those who are not working together, are those who refuse to hear, and to follow, the pure instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
Now the questions arises will Gaudiya Math accept your proxy initiations?
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
I think you already know the answer to that.
More sarcasm. So really you are opiniated in disguise.
Deovtee 108
Dear Devotee108 prabhu;
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, our beloved eternal spiritual master whose instructions are those that we should always follow in His organization.
Hare Krsna.
Prabhu; how many different ways can we say the same thing over and over?
He only wants to argue even tho he keeps saying he is done with us and never coming back again!
I am trying to figure out who he is calling 17 years old. LOL...
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Yeah, I know. He is argumentative, for sure. Yet I have some faith in his higher nature and want to give him a chance to either prove his point or realize there is nothing wrong with getting humble and actually letting himself see what Prabhupada did indeed instruct. Yet I am only human and can get my feelings hurt, so we shall see how much more I can tolerate.
I am trying to figure out who he is calling 17 years old. LOL...
I considered it a compliment. lol Hey, I'm taking that one. You can't have it. I get to be 17 years old again. whoopie! LOL
Devotee 108
Hare Krsna!
Very nice post, Devotee108 prabhu! You hit on each issue and addressed his misconceptions very throughly not missing a point! Now if he will just read it with an open heart perhaps he will begin to have some understanding.
I have been dealing with this one for so long now that my last nerve has been rubbed raw and I have no more patience left at all. I am feeling like I have been sucked back in time to the Salem Witchhunts!!! :shock:
BTW, you get to be 17 today but I get tomorrow. This old bod is 51 tomorrow and I deserve it! :lol:
Haribol!!!!
Rukmini prabhu,
I have a headache and have to go (darn material bodies! ha), but first wanted to wish you a HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!!!!! :) :)
Please take care.
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Thank you Devotee108 prabhu!
Take care and get some rest!
* *
\ :lol: /
Haribol!!
Srila Prabhupada says in one of his letters that the first qualification of a guru is that he must be a resident of Krishna loka, otherwise "it will be a farce." Therefore, the diksha guru can give divyam jnanam and absorb sins (diksha). Srila Prabhupada says when a neophyte tries to absorb sins of others, he simply falls down and "eventually becomes degraded" (NOI). This is what we see, the GBC and Gaudiya Matha gurus fell down, sometimes after big scandals. I just got a 5 page letter from SDG about Satsvarupa's "troubles" of "physical intimacy" with his female "therapist."
So, the ritvik idea is that the guru must be a resident of Krishna loka. As for hidden tapes, yes there were a number of discussions about how they would be ritviks, and the would not have vyasasanas etc., according to Srila Prabhupada's 1977 servant, Gauridasa. And he asks the same thing, where are these tapes? So does Yasodananda and others who were there.
Thanks Puranjana dasa :roll:
Govindaram: So what if the Ritvik Priests fall-down?
Some ritviks feel the ritvik officiating acarya must be some type of guru and never fall down. Others feel he just does the ceremony then walks away cuz the disciple isn't his in the first place. This needs to be discussed. But the bottom line is, regardless of which side one leans toward, unlike the iskcon gurus who fell down which resulted in many disciples freaking out and loosing it, some giving up their spiriutal life because their faith was wrapped up in their guru, *with the ritvik priest, should he fall down, then at least the devotee still has their link thru Prabhupada. That is the most important point.
I would like to see you discuss, this time I am not being sarcastic.
*How did you work that out? Unless the Guru is physically present, how can he oversee the Initiations? In the same way a disciple of Prabhupada who is acting as Guru should the Guru fall-down, then the situation is the same, as far as I can see the track record for fall-downs is not the issue, its sticking to Sampradaya.
Actually, that's not true. It has been done. When you read the dates of the appearances and disappearances of the acarayas in our sampradaya, you do not see each and every one of them leaving this world with the very next one in line appearing and at right age to take disciples, on the heals of their passing. Even, there are often big gaps. So how did the initiations go on? The ritvik system was used and because it was used, you will not see anyone else trying to put THEIR name along with the names of these other great pure devotee acarays. You will not see their names listed as part of our parampara system because they do not try to take credit.
Give me an example when Ritvik system was used in our Sampradaya, that's OUR sampradaya.
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority, you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot, so you make a show-vote to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
You have no clue who you are talking to little man. You have just stepped over the line into deep Vaisnava aparadha. You need to step back and reconsider what you just said.
Your ego is going to eat you alive junior! Take it for what it is worth but you just committed a maha offensive to a senior Vaishnava.
Sleep well tonight little boy!
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority, you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot, so you make a show-vote to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
Hare Krsna Puranjana dasa;
Please accept my obeisances. All gloriest to Srila Prabhupada.
My wild guess on the whereabouts of these incriminating tapes is melted down in some mysterious fire somewhere so they could never be dredged up!
Srila Prabhupada says in one of his letters that the first qualification of a guru is that he must be a resident of Krishna loka, otherwise "it will be a farce." Therefore, the diksha guru can give divyam jnanam and absorb sins (diksha). Srila Prabhupada says when a neophyte tries to absorb sins of others, he simply falls down and "eventually becomes degraded" (NOI). This is what we see, the GBC and Gaudiya Matha gurus fell down, sometimes after big scandals. I just got a 5 page letter from SDG about Satsvarupa's "troubles" of "physical intimacy" with his female "therapist."
So, the ritvik idea is that the guru must be a resident of Krishna loka. As for hidden tapes, yes there were a number of discussions about how they would be ritviks, and the would not have vyasasanas etc., according to Srila Prabhupada's 1977 servant, Gauridasa. And he asks the same thing, where are these tapes? So does Yasodananda and others who were there.
Thanks Puranjana dasa :roll:
You have no clue who you are talking to little man. You have just stepped over the line into deep Vaisnava aparadha. You need to step back and reconsider what you just said.
Your ego is going to eat you alive junior! Take it for what it is worth but you just committed a maha offensive to a senior Vaishnava.
Deep Aparadha, what did I say?
Don't insult my intelligence or others, this sort of mentality, that you have offended me etc, won't wash with me, what I have is my personal opinion.
Again:
Govindaram
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority, you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot, so you make a show-vote to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
from reply to:
Devotee108
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
At the lotus feet of ALL Vaishnava's. We don't neglect other devotees, we worship them knowing their devotion to thier Gurudeva. Haribol.[/quote]
You have not and can not offend me, I am no great devotee. I laugh at you! In fact I ROTFLMAO! But you have committed a great offense to someone else but you are too blind to see.
Keep digging....when the handle of that shovel breaks I will buy you a new one.
Have a nice night and go back to paltalk and play guru to the other kiddies. Don't stay up too late. Sweet dreams!
BTW...I probably won't be around for a while so have a field day! :twisted:
You have no clue who you are talking to little man. You have just stepped over the line into deep Vaisnava aparadha. You need to step back and reconsider what you just said.
Your ego is going to eat you alive junior! Take it for what it is worth but you just committed a maha offensive to a senior Vaishnava.
Deep Aparadha, what did I say?
Don't insult my intelligence or others, this sort of mentality, that you have offended me etc, won't wash with me, what I have is my personal opinion.
Again:
Govindaram
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority, you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot, so you make a show-vote to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
from reply to:
Devotee108
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
At the lotus feet of ALL Vaishnava's. We don't neglect other devotees, we worship them knowing their devotion to thier Gurudeva. Haribol.[/quote]
BTW...I probably won't be around for a while so have a field day!
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all.
[quote]Govindaram: So what if the Ritvik Priests fall-down?
Devotee 108 said -
Some ritviks feel the ritvik officiating acarya must be some type of guru and never fall down. Others feel he just does the ceremony then walks away cuz the disciple isn't his in the first place. This needs to be discussed. But the bottom line is, regardless of which side one leans toward, unlike the iskcon gurus who fell down which resulted in many disciples freaking out and loosing it, some giving up their spiriutal life because their faith was wrapped up in their guru, *with the ritvik priest, should he fall down, then at least the devotee still has their link thru Prabhupada. That is the most important point.
Govindaram said
I would like to see you discuss, this time I am not being sarcastic.
Thank you Govindaram prabhu. I appreciate your sincerity.
I do agree it must be discussed, but I did not mean for it to become a major point because first, most of the real tapes have been hidden or damaged or tampered with, etc. As well as documentation. Therefore its hard to know what Prabhuapda said on the details of ritvik since the iskcon authorities did all this damage. So yes, it needs to be discussed, but that can come later. The more important point is that we follow Prabhupada's instructions. I realize it is hard to believe anyone would damage or destroy his instructions. All I can say is that for me, I took the time to investiage it and did not jump on any bandwagon. I found out for myself, and I agree you too must find out for yourself, either way.
*How did you work that out? Unless the Guru is physically present, how can he oversee the Initiations?
What makes you think Prabhupada is not present? As for physically present, this is an iskcon and GM idea, not a Prabhupada idea. I have a quote (somewhere, but I can find it if you want it) where someone was criticizing the Christians to Prabhupada. They said they have no guru. And Prabhuapda stopped them and said yes, they do have a guru. They asked how this is possible, and Prabhuapada explained that because they are following the Bible, therefore they are accepting Jesus as their guru.
So you see, it was not Prabhupada who preached the guru must be physically present. That is a newer idea.
In the same way a disciple of Prabhupada who is acting as Guru should the Guru fall-down, then the situation is the same,
That may sound good to you on paper, but I have seen in real life, when the disciples of these diska gurus who have fallen down hear about it, so many have serious damage to their own spiritual life as well. If on the other hand they had Prabhupada as their guru, they would not feel they lost their link or connection. And I remember Prabhupada said that we may fall down but he never would.
as far as I can see the track record for fall-downs is not the issue, its sticking to Sampradaya.
Both are the issue, because if a guru falls down, how can he really be a guru? A guru is one who never falls down, and I am not repeating any rhetoric I have heard anywhere. I have actually read where Prabhuapda has siad this.
Anyway, the other issue of sticking to the sampradaya, I don't understand why you think there is any loss of sampradaya. First, it's the same sampradaya we were following when Prabhuapda was with us and giving initiations. Sometimes he was physically present, sometimes he had the temple president perform the ceremony on his behalf. But always, the sampradaya remained in tact. Just because his physical presence is not with us now, does not mean he has left us. Prabhupada said he will not die but lives forever in his books. As well as, the Vaisnava dies to live and in living spreads the holy name around. So, we need not loose our faith, as he never leaves us. He will always be there for us. There is no question of a loss of Sampradaya. Prabhupada would not instruct us to do something that would cause us to disconnect from it. So this is the real issue, that Prabhupada did indeed instruct us to be ritvik, and it therefore is what actually maintains the Sampradaya. To say there would be loss of Sampradaya in this way would be the same as saying Prabhupada didn't know what he was doing and gave us an instruction that would cause such damage. Not so. Matter of fact, as more and more splinter gurus and splinter gruops appear, there is a greater risk of loss of our Sampradiya! The only way we can keep our Sampradaya is by keeping Prabhupada the guru, as he will always and eternally be linked there.
Actually, that's not true. It has been done. When you read the dates of the appearances and disappearances of the acarayas in our sampradaya, you do not see each and every one of them leaving this world with the very next one in line appearing and at right age to take disciples, on the heals of their passing. Even, there are often big gaps. So how did the initiations go on? The ritvik system was used and because it was used, you will not see anyone else trying to put THEIR name along with the names of these other great pure devotee acarays. You will not see their names listed as part of our parampara system because they do not try to take credit.
Govindaram said
Give me an example when Ritvik system was used in our Sampradaya, that's OUR sampradaya.
I'm too tired to do any research 'for' you right now, but I just logcally explained it above. It makes too much sense. If you dont want to accept, that is your right.
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority,
You're twisting my words. I am beginning to notice you do that a lot. I never ever said I dont care for "any" authority. I clearly said I dont accept GAUDIYA MATH authority. They are not the same authority as Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada left them for a reason, and if you are part of them, then never the twain shall meet. I wil always stick to Prabhuapda and his leaving. I will not join with what he left. HE is my authority, not them. Maybe they are yours. Fine. But then go with them. Surrnder unto them. Move into their temple.
you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot,
So you've given up sarcasm for spiritual put-downs and hitting below the belt. You know nothing of me or what degree I am surrendered or not surrendered. Matter of fact, why dont you tell us when you moved into the temple and got trained up? When you had to wait in line for the shower or for your breakfast day after day? When you had to clash up against the false egos of others you live with but because you are all trying to get purified you used it to get humble? Please tell us the last time you went out on book distribution and if you have given up tv, moved out from your mothers house and lived on your own? Next time you are going to judge, remember you have put yourself up for being judged as well.
so you make a show-vote
What an awful thing to accuse me of. And yet I have never once seen you appolgize to myself or anyone else you have been cruel to here. You are never wrong and can't make a mistake? Can't be humble enough to apologize for the insults you keep slinging? You expect NICE replies and are shocked so many give you nasty ones? You get what you give. You must be nice if you want kindness in return. So far I see replies that indicate trickery, not honest Vaisnava exchanges from you, but a come-on, so you can give a dig once you get a person to trust you a little.
to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
For the hundredth time, I have never said there are no pure deovtees! It appears you read what you want to read, hear what you want to hear. Let me try to explain this to you once again. I have said, repeatedly, that there ARE other pure devotees on this planet. I have said, repeately, that we don't know how to recognize them so in OUR movement, our Isckon movement, Prabhuapda has protected us by telling US what to do. I have said I am speaking of OUR movement only and not that there arent other pure devotees on the planet. And I have said we are to follow Prabhupada's instructions.
You want to keep finding angles around his instructions, nothing I can do about that. I suspect you are influenced by Gaudiya Math, maybe even into one of their gurus. Then why not go there? I don't mind you here, I just can't understand why you enjoy an arguement when you know no one will change there mind here, and even you insult after insult to those who approah you with kindness and try to make peace. To some people, fighting is sense gratification.
Devotee 108
You have no clue who you are talking to little man. You have just stepped over the line into deep Vaisnava aparadha. You need to step back and reconsider what you just said.
Your ego is going to eat you alive junior! Take it for what it is worth but you just committed a maha offensive to a senior Vaishnava.
Sleep well tonight little boy!
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority, you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot, so you make a show-vote to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
Dear Rukmini prabhu,
Thank you for your kindness. :) I do not consider myself one that someone can much make offenses to, but I suppose technically that is there. I am trying with intent not to become offended by him, so maybe that reduces it, but have also realized that he does hurt my feelings, and that just 'happens,' regardless of my remaining philosohical. So I guess there isn't much more I can do for the boy, as I recall one dear devotee friend telling me that in our efforts to preach to some and save them, if they become 'too' offensive, then we are only helping them to make an offense. So I have no choice but to stop trying to help him. I wish him well, but I have given him sincere replies, to which he has twisted, manipulated, and misused to gain my trust then throw a dagger when I least expected it. Thats ok, I can take it, but to a degree. So I give up saving this soul in the body of Govindaram, and only can pray Srila Prabhupada reaches out and touches his heart one day when he fianlly opens to him properly. Or maybe will just be given the mercy. Anyway, thank you for your good words.
And ...... my headache is gone. Thank God for Excedrine. lol
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Don't tease me and get my hopes up.
BTW...I probably won't be around for a while so have a field day!
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all.
Dear Devotee108;
I am happy to hear that you are feeling better!
Best we move away from this one as quickly as possible. I have been down this road too many times with him and have learned that he burns many bridges along his travels.
It is his m.o. and now he is over at AF soliciting pity from some unsuspecting victims. The devotee community can be rather tight and small and at some point in time he will run out of people to either run to or beat up.
You are a kind and sweet devotee and my reaction to his offense was one that I do not regret. I leave this to Krishna now.
Hare Krsna
Rukmini-Devi dasi
Dear Rukmini prabhu,
Thank you for your kindness. :) I do not consider myself one that someone can much make offenses to, but I suppose technically that is there. I am trying with intent not to become offended by him, so maybe that reduces it, but have also realized that he does hurt my feelings, and that just 'happens,' regardless of my remaining philosohical. So I guess there isn't much more I can do for the boy, as I recall one dear devotee friend telling me that in our efforts to preach to some and save them, if they become 'too' offensive, then we are only helping them to make an offense. So I have no choice but to stop trying to help him. I wish him well, but I have given him sincere replies, to which he has twisted, manipulated, and misused to gain my trust then throw a dagger when I least expected it. Thats ok, I can take it, but to a degree. So I give up saving this soul in the body of Govindaram, and only can pray Srila Prabhupada reaches out and touches his heart one day when he fianlly opens to him properly. Or maybe will just be given the mercy. Anyway, thank you for your good words.
And ...... my headache is gone. Thank God for Excedrine. lol
Your Servant,
Devotee 108
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all.
-----------------
Thanks prabhu. This is called "maunam samyam raksati." He is defeated and so he is forced to retreat in silence, as shastra says his "silence" proves he is wrong. Maunam equals defeat, and also raksati, protection of the wrong ideas. Very good. Yes, as soon as we say Krishna's successors are pure (saksat hari tvena -- no less) and not deviants, and this is supported by shastra (acaryam mam vijnaniyam: for example) then the deviant gurus lineages have to cringe and retreat at these words of shastra, and this has gone on since 1979 when we said to the GBC: gurus do not ingest LSD and have illicit sex with their disciples?
The reply the GBC gave me then was to kick me out of ISKCON claiming that God's successors, and their alleged "assistants of the gopis" need to get loaded on drugs and have illicit sex because "Sridhara Maharaja of the Gaudiya Matha supports Jayatirtha." Of course, later on Jayatirtha's head was whacked by a disgruntled disciple since it seems that not everyone agrees with the GBC: that God's successors are drug addicted sex mongers?
So notice, our citing shastra is what they consider as infection, as Jayadvaita says, the GBC gurus are engaged in "illicit sex with men, women and children" and as soon as we say SHASTRA says this is "gurusuh narah matih ... narakah sah -- (i.e. hellish misconception)," they retreat, although we do get threats of violence and so on as their usual reply from time to time since 1978.
So maunam, he is defeated. Very good. He has no shastra to defend his position, and his previous quoting of BG Narasingha aka Jagat Guru, the worshipper of the founder of the 1936 homosexual and deviant "guru" Vasudeva, did not work either. Thanks, your non illicit sex with men, women and children worshippers, Puranjana dasa :shock:
(pada@neteze.com)
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all.
-----------------
Thanks prabhu. This is called "maunam samyam raksati." He is defeated and so he is forced to retreat in silence, as shastra says his "silence" proves he is wrong. Maunam equals defeat, and also raksati, protection of the wrong ideas. Very good. Yes, as soon as we say Krishna's successors are pure (saksat hari tvena -- no less) and not deviants, and this is supported by shastra (acaryam mam vijnaniyam: for example) then the deviant gurus lineages have to cringe and retreat at these words of shastra, and this has gone on since 1979 when we said to the GBC: gurus do not ingest LSD and have illicit sex with their disciples?
The reply the GBC gave me then was to kick me out of ISKCON claiming that God's successors, and their alleged "assistants of the gopis" need to get loaded on drugs and have illicit sex because "Sridhara Maharaja of the Gaudiya Matha supports Jayatirtha." Of course, later on Jayatirtha's head was whacked by a disgruntled disciple since it seems that not everyone agrees with the GBC: that God's successors are drug addicted sex mongers?
So notice, our citing shastra is what they consider as infection, as Jayadvaita says, the GBC gurus are engaged in "illicit sex with men, women and children" and as soon as we say SHASTRA says this is "gurusuh narah matih ... narakah sah -- (i.e. hellish misconception)," they retreat, although we do get threats of violence and so on as their usual reply from time to time since 1978.
So maunam, he is defeated. Very good. He has no shastra to defend his position, and his previous quoting of BG Narasingha aka Jagat Guru, the worshipper of the founder of the 1936 homosexual and deviant "guru" Vasudeva, did not work either. Thanks, your non illicit sex with men, women and children worshippers, Puranjana dasa :shock:
(pada@neteze.com)
Geeze Puranjana, just whenI think you're preacihng good, you bring up all the homo stuff and sex stuff. It's like your obsessed. Everywhere I go, I have to convince people ritviks are good and right and not like the fundamentalism preached by Puranjana. Devotees hear I'm ritvik and tell me I am crazy like Puranjana! They think the words ritvik and Puranjana are the same and go together exclusively! This obsession of yours to always point out the sex garbage is brining about a disservice to Prabhupada's ritvik movement, not a service!
Sorry, I did not "bring up" the homosexual guru issue? This is brought up by many citations from His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my guru maharaja. He is the one who says that in 1936 BR Sridhara Maharaja, and his associates namely Professor Sannyal and Madhava Maharaja, forwarded a homosexual as their guru.
You are confused, and you are de facto saying it is Prabhupada who is obsessed since he is the one who cites over and over and over and over, that he disagrees with the Gaudiya Matha and their appointing of Vasudeva (whom Prabhupada says: is a homosexual)?
Once again, you are confusing me with His Divine Grace since you are not reading the whole texts? Not me, rather The Gaudiya Matha deviants are the ones who originally brought this issue up, again -- not me? And Prabhupada merely commented negatively AFTER THE FACT, about it as he says "for forty years" he complained about their false guru project? Not me? I am merely repeating -- his complaint?
Was Srila Prabhupada obsessed since he says he disagreed for forty years? No, he simply does not agree that homosexuals and their deviant supporters are God's successor gurus? This is not "obsession," it is merely a fact of His Divine Grace's teachings. This is his teaching, not mine? I am simply repeating his teaching.
Thus, I never brought this up, he does, and I am simply repeating what he says, and he says this is unauthorized, a deviation, and so on and so forth. Fast forward to 1978, the GBC went to the self-same Gaudiya Matha folks who made their 1936 false guru, and they combinedly forwarded more homosexuals and deviants, as their gurus. Once again, I did not forward this? They did. You are blaming the messenger, namely Srila Prabhupada, who "brings this issue up" -- twenty years before I was even born, he said he was disagreeing with BR Sridhara and his 1936 "appointed," and homosexual, guru project?
Please set your history correctly, he brings it up, we are merely the messenger of his teachings, as such we never "brought this up," it is a historical fact, FIRST AND FOREMOST, mentioned by Srila Prabhupada. He says for forty years, again he says not me, he disagreed with them, that means he never agreed, not that he was obsessed? Krishna does not agree that deviants are His successors either. Does that means Krishna: is obsessed? No, He does not accept this, and neither do we. Someone here cited BG Narasingha, and he is the foremost cheerleader/ follower of the promoters of the 1936 deviant guru, we simply say, Srila Prabhupada says -- he never agreed with this deviation, and people should have listened to me all along since 1978, since they imperiled our children by their maunam samyam raksati, this is also recorded history, ys Thanks pd
:roll:
Sorry, I did not "bring up" the homosexual guru issue? This is brought up by many citations from His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my guru maharaja. He is the one who says that in 1936 BR Sridhara Maharaja, and his associates namely Professor Sannyal and Madhava Maharaja, forwarded a homosexual as their guru.
You are confused, and you are de facto saying it is Prabhupada who is obsessed since he is the one who cites over and over and over and over, that he disagrees with the Gaudiya Matha and their appointing of Vasudeva (whom Prabhupada says: is a homosexual)?
Once again, you are confusing me with His Divine Grace since you are not reading the whole texts? Not me, rather The Gaudiya Matha deviants are the ones who originally brought this issue up, again -- not me? And Prabhupada merely commented negatively AFTER THE FACT, about it as he says "for forty years" he complained about their false guru project? Not me? I am merely repeating -- his complaint?
Was Srila Prabhupada obsessed since he says he disagreed for forty years? No, he simply does not agree that homosexuals and their deviant supporters are God's successor gurus? This is not "obsession," it is merely a fact of His Divine Grace's teachings. This is his teaching, not mine? I am simply repeating his teaching.
Thus, I never brought this up, he does, and I am simply repeating what he says, and he says this is unauthorized, a deviation, and so on and so forth. Fast forward to 1978, the GBC went to the self-same Gaudiya Matha folks who made their 1936 false guru, and they combinedly forwarded more homosexuals and deviants, as their gurus. Once again, I did not forward this? They did. You are blaming the messenger, namely Srila Prabhupada, who "brings this issue up" -- twenty years before I was even born, he said he was disagreeing with BR Sridhara and his 1936 "appointed," and homosexual, guru project?
Please set your history correctly, he brings it up, we are merely the messenger of his teachings, as such we never "brought this up," it is a historical fact, FIRST AND FOREMOST, mentioned by Srila Prabhupada. He says for forty years, again he says not me, he disagreed with them, that means he never agreed, not that he was obsessed? Krishna does not agree that deviants are His successors either. Does that means Krishna: is obsessed? No, He does not accept this, and neither do we. Someone here cited BG Narasingha, and he is the foremost cheerleader/ follower of the promoters of the 1936 deviant guru, we simply say, Srila Prabhupada says -- he never agreed with this deviation, and people should have listened to me all along since 1978, since they imperiled our children by their maunam samyam raksati, this is also recorded history, ys Thanks pd
:roll:
You know that I did not claim Prabhupada never said these things. Making that statement, you hide your addiction to obsession behind it. Prabhupada was not obsessed. THAT IS THE ISSUE. Stop trying to change the issue making it sound like others are confused, not accpeting what Prabhupada himself said, or any other excusism you muster up to escape looking at yourself. Stop blaming Prabhupada. This is about YOU.
It must bring you some type of payoff that you get rid of ritvik friends. Wondering what its like to live so alone or in one's head. Its ok with you to insult everyone, including those on your side. You think you do not commit vaisnava aparada when you are sarcastic smart alect because you are so rightly situatated you can say anything at all and be free from aparadha? Think again. Only a friend would take the time to tell you, knowing you will but insult them further.
Someday maybe you will stop thinking you are the only one fully accepting Prabhupada as guru. Once you do that though, you will have to accept hearing the mistakes you make from your godbrothers or godsisters. Always responding like you are the guru of ritvik Movement keeps you at arms length from everyone, and you never have to get humble.
And for Gods sake, stop ending your sentences with question marks. What the heck is that suppose to mean anyway? If no one knows what you mean, your preaching falls on deaf ears.
Tulasi
Thanks but I was the first person to show the devotees Prabhupada's last will, which I had to break into Hansadutta's safe to get it. No you.
I was the first person to make copies of the appointment tape and show how this was bogus. Not you.
I was distributing the July 9th letter in 1984, way before any of you were even known about? The FBI saved me from getting assassinated in 1986 when I said "Prabhupada is the guru, not the GBC." Where were you fair weather friends at that time? Nowhere.
Again, I did not forward the homosexual and deviant guru issue, the GBC not only forwards that, they worship that? Where have you been dude? wake up, they worship that! And so does the Gaudiya Matha, they worship the founders of the worship of deviants.
And we have exposed that and many media folks, hindus, gurukulis and hundreds of devotees thanked me for that. Not you? This is part and parcel of the ritvik issue, they are not gurus, they were not appointed as gurus. I also was the first person to produce a copy of the poison tape and I distributed it right in the GBC's face in front of the Los Angeles temple, and according to a devotee survey on VNN, 10,000 people NOW accept our proposal here as well. Not yours? Wake up! Hundreds of Brijabasis also accept our poison tape analysis, meanwhile, no one has ever even heard of your tape? Where is it? First, make your take on this issue and let me know what it is, thousands of people accept our, thanks pd
:roll:
International Society for Krsna Consciousness
Founder Acarya: A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
His Holiness Satsvarupa das Goswami
4719 Quail Lakes Drive, Suite G-159
Stockton, CA 95207 Satsvarupa_ dasa_Goswami@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
May 10, 2004
* Dear disciples, friends, and family of devotees,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I'm going to start by falling at your feet and asking for forgiveness
for a mistake I committed a year and a half ago involving
inappropriate dealings with a woman. I'll tell more about this later
in the letter.
[PADA: There is a constant flow of "scandals" surfacing from
Satsvarupa's (SDG's) Governing Body Commission's (GBC's) deviant "pure
devotee gurus." Yet "the details" are only released after one, two,
ten years, or never. In short, the GBC's "guru" deviations are clearly
being "covered-up" for as long as possible. This is how SDG and his
GBC handle all too numerous "guru scandals" amongst their "gurus" such
as Bhagavan, Harikesha, Bhavananda, Ramesvara, Kirtanananda, ad
infinitum. Their policy is to: "cover up the scandal." And this has
lead many devotees to call SDG "the mushroom grower" since their
policy is "to keep the devotees in the dark and feed them manure."
Gladly, this is being noticed by many more devotees, so the GBC's
false guru project is definately on its last legs. Prabhupada says
"You can cheat (by being a false guru) but it will not be effective."
Meanwhile, the "cover-up" policy has acted powerfully to suppress
SDG's party's child molesting, beatings, murders and assorted criminal
actions. Notice SDG says above, "I'll tell you about this later," yes,
after it is front page news everywhere else. In other words, their
guru's scandals are covered up, and their criminal byproducts are
covered-up.
In this letter SDG explains how cover-up "protects his disciples." Yet
SDG has never explained why he has the authority to take "his own
disciples"? All the evidence, including Prabhupada's own "last will"
(which we had to hijack from Hansadutta's safe since this too was
being covered-up), show that SDG and his "eleven gurus" were never
"appointed as gurus"? This has already been admitted to by many of
"the eleven" themselves. "There never was any guru appointment," as
Tamal, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Harikesha, Jayatirtha and others have
all admitted. In fact at one point Kirtanananda said, "The whole GBC
is bogus because they say gurus are appointed, when everyone knows
Prabhupada does not agree with appointed gurus." SDG therefore is
still "keeping us in the dark"? Isn't this all a "big lie," that he
and ten other deviants, namely some of SDG's homosexual and crooked
friends, were "appointed as gurus"? As such, they have "disciples." As
such, they have to make up more and more lies to cover up for their
guru's scandals. Layers upon layers of lies? This "protects" their
teeny guru franchise, while it destroys and bankrupts ISKCON with
patterns of beatings, molesting and murders and bad media, and court
cases etc.
SDG "covers up scandals," to protect "the disciples" of the appointed
eleven. Yet there never was any appointment of eleven gurus? Moreover,
Srila Prabhupada says REPEATEDLY that gurus are not appointed. Indeed,
when asked, Prabhupada said he was not going to appoint any leaders
(gurus). Moreover Prabhupada writes that "there is no record" of any
gurus being appointed in his guru's mission, and that adherents of
this "appointed guru" process are deviants. Again, there is no system
of "appointing gurus" or similar ecclessistical processes governing
the pure devotees of God? As we see above, SDG is writing "dear
disciples" -- yet he has no claim to any "disciples" since he and his
team of eleven -- lied -- that they had been appointed as gurus. Thus
the first words in SDG's letter are outright lies: "dear disciples."
Who "appointed" SDG as the Pope of ISKCON? He never tells us in 27
years? "When were you appointed as the Pope of ISKCON"? Srila
Prabhupada explains that these false gurus "appoint themselves." Of
course if we ask this question, as Jadurani devi did, and we get
beaten almost to death into a bloody pulp as SDG orchestrates, this is
all "divine lila" emanating from SDG. In sum, SDG and his pals like BR
Sridhara Maharaja, BV Narayana Maharaja, BP and BV Puri maharajas,
Tripurari swami et al., they militantly, violently and brutally
assisted establishing that homosexual pedophiles are Krishna's
appointed successors, and anyone who disagrees with their
"appointment" (and/or subsequent mass molesting of children) will be
beaten and killed. Any questions? And SDG says worship of Jesus or
Prabhupada is "posthumous ritvik deviation" since pedophile worship
alone is allowed, and folks like Rocana still use these slogans as
well since he was a big fan of SDG's pedophile pooja. And "cover all
this up as long as possible," so that the beatings, molesting and
murders can go on nicely.
Nevermind that SDG's false gurus and subsequent cover-up process has
devastated thousands of devotees. They are quite angry that they were
mis-informed (cheated) about "the bogus guru appointment," other "guru
problems," and SDG's guru regime's child molester project in ISKCON.
These victims include many of ISKCON's ex-children. Many of them lived
in orchestrated starving, beating and molesting, and this was also
"covered-up" by SDG's party to "save the faith of the disciples" --
namely disciples of SDG's homosexual pedophile "gurus" regime. In sum,
SDG's guru lineage is simply a well documented history of "abuses of
power" -- even against children. Yet many devotees are now recognizing
this more and more every day. Despite all of SDG's party's cover-up
efforts they could not even save many of their own "disciples" from
suffering mental breakdowns and crises when the GBC/ SDG "mushroom"
followers discovered SDG had cheated them so badly. Some of the GBC/
SDG followers have had severe mental breakdowns and assorted nervous
disorders, like Sanat. He went to the New York State's "county mental
health clinic" and declared that SDG has twisted his brain and ruined
his life. And the Government -- agreed. Again, many devotees are
waking up to this victimization pattern lately, as the revolution
against the GBC authority spreads widely. Of course one of "the
disciples" of Jayatirtha who learned he was being cheated by SDG's
party simply chopped off Jayatirtha's head with a dull knife. This is
merely one example of the reactions to SDG's guru cheating program.
As soon as some poor innocent devotees try to uncover SDG's bogus guru
claims and rectify the problems of ISKCON (i.e. mixing pure bhakti
yoga with deviant behavior), they clearly do so at their peril since
it has been common for "exposers" to be banned, beaten and even
killed. The GBC still uses cult tactics such as lies, denial and
sometimes violent repression. As such, they are not even on the most
elementary spiritual platform of "straightforward dealings and honesty
(satyam)." A number of people have written PADA recently to say, this
is all these GBC are, cheaters in the name of religion. False gurus.
Srila Prabhupada and all bona fide scriptures say that one of the
FIRST qualities a devotee, even the most neophyte, is "honesty." Thus
notice, SDG has no sympathy for the problems that the "exposers" have
had, nor does he even address their issues? "No truth and no mercy."
Nor does SDG apologize for his creating the GBC's "culture of
impunity," which he personally encouraged, authorized and instituted,
and which he knows full well -- uses violent repression and has used
murders. This is after all how SDG became "worshipped" as one of the
only good devotee and Pope of ISKCON, by his viciously driving out
most of the other devotees, and his using techniques like banning and
beating. And murder. Of course after SDG's ex-wife Jadurani was
assaulted at the Los Angeles Rathayatra, and then later on beaten
almost to death in New Vrndavana, SDG could barely contain his gleeful
gloating. SDG and his GBC's "anti-women, family and children," and
"pro-homosexual pedophile worship program" was progressing so nicely!
SDG went on to glorify Kirtanananda, the orchestratror of the Jadurani
beating, as "like Jesus, Haridasa Thakura and Prahladha." SDG's party
is thus from whence the policy of child molesting, women beating and
hating, family hating, and molester worship loving sentiment, in
ISKCON, is emanating from all along. Even when Kirtanananda was having
little boys in his sleeping bag, motor home, cottage, SDG was still
writing that this deviant is "like Jesus." And Kirtanananda was even
dressing like a Pope with a big golden crown, long silk robes, gold
tipped cane. And so SDG thought this is "Jesus"! A nice homosexual
pedophile who is covered with the hands of little boys, who is getting
women beaten nearly to death, and who apparently has assassinated
"dissenter" devotees buried in the hills, how pure can you get! And he
has such a nice Pope robe! Self-appointed Popes love one another,
birds of a feather.
SDG's endorsement of merely one of his eleven deviants, like
Kirtanananda, caused more and more devotees to be beaten and killed;
women to have their marriages destroyed; children to be destroyed by
molesters, ad infinitum, and yet SDG never even seems to notice the
bloody carnage under the treads of his GBC's army tank? Rumors were
even circulating that 'dissenters' were being murdered at New
Vrindavana, and then ground up in meat grinders, and fed to dogs. How
sweet! SDG's team can create an atmosphere of fear and anxiety for the
devotees. This is "heaven" for a nice homosexual pedophile worshipper
like SDG. And simply for SDG's role in the beating of Jadurani, what
to speak of his subsequent gloating, SDG will be ground up in the
rollers of Yamaraja for a considerable period of time. Thus saith
shastra, amen. There is some good news here -- if we could call it
that -- since SDG has been the self appointed Pope of such a vicious
regime, many devotees now readily believe his party indeed poisoned
Prabhupada. As one devotee said to PADA, SDG's party has behaved with
such a cold, calculating, vicious methodology, it would be a surprise
if they had not poisoned Prabhupada?
Next, why is it that a renunciate "sannyasa's inappropriate dealings
with a woman" is: "a mistake"? "I robbed the bank and shot the guard,
but this was -- a mistake." "I put my hands down the pants of my
disciples -- by accident." Some fools may still accept these "guru
bhoghi rationalizations" like SDG's remaining loyalists such as
Pranada, Valadeva Vidyabusana, Kaisori and others, although PADA is
confident that even the last tier of SDG supporters will eventually
wake up and quit serving this master of bunkum. This is the same old
bogus GBC "guru lila story" we have heard over and over. Repeat after
PADA, a Gaudiya Matha or GBC guru (and now SDG) is sexually aggressing
himself upon a woman, even a married woman. Now, repeat that a
ka-zillion times. This poor woman SDG had previously "ordered" to
leave her first husband. And now he is working hard on his next
project, disturbing her second marriage.
Prabhupada says, "Having illicit sex with an already married woman is
like having sex with your own mother." This is not "a mistake," this
is forbidden activity -- for even the common man, what to speak of
"the pure devotee guru." Many devotees have wrote to say they agree
with PADA, and that this incident simply proves that SDG is an
ordinary man and not a guru, as PADA has said all along. And SDG
always links his deviations to "serving Krishna and the devotees" when
clearly he is serving: himself, just as cult leader Jim Baker claimed
he covered-up having an affair to "serve the Lord." The end result was
that millions of people were disillusioned with Jim Baker, and now
they are disillusioned with SDG? This is all great news.]
* I want to thank you for all of the outpourings of love and support I
am receiving in the many letters coming from god brothers, disciples,
and friends. In this letter, I'm going to answer some of the questions
that have been raised. You have been waiting too long for these
answers. I will also continue to respond by letter to each of you.
Let's start with the first question.
Question 1: Can you please explain what happened?
Answer 1: For the past twenty years, I have been contending with the
dominant battle in my life a painful and serious disease.
[PADA: Satsvarupa admits that his "illness" is actually a "mental
disorder" -- namely panic and "anxiety" attacks which gives him
"incapacitating headaches." SDG admits the best medical doctors cannot
find any "physical" cause for his ailment. The cause of SDG's
"physical illness" is -- his mental illness. SDG is a neurotic,
psychotic, mental nut case who is "incapacitated" -- by his own
self-created mental delusions. Of course SDG's "I am the victim" (of
illness etc.) is often just an act played by many similar cult leaders
and tyrant dictators to get sympathy. The scriptures say a devotee
must be "sane." Indeed "being sane" is one of the "qualities of a
devotee" as stated by Rupa Goswami in his "Nectar Of Devotion."
Yet Satsvarupa always says, "Who cares for Rupa Goswami? I am the
great SDG and I say 'devotees are not sane.'" SDG "rewrites
scriptures" at every turn. "Rupa Goswami says there is 'nectar' in
serving Krishna, but the great SDG says, there is only stress,
anxiety, rebound headaches, pain, and then even more crippling
headaches, while laying about in bed all day long, staring at the
walls, drooling due to drug stupor." Indeed SDG writes in his Journals
that "I am the guru of headaches." "Lord Chaitanya says that
devotional service 'decreases' the fire of material existence to
almost nil, while the great SDG says that devotion to Krishna --
increases -- the fire to the point of intolerable anxiety and painful
incapacitation, and drug induced stupor. Prabhupada says devotional
service is joyful and blissful, but the great SDG says it is painful
and disabling. Prabhupada also says: gurus do not have zones; gurus
are not ecclesiastically appointed; gurus are not homosexuals; gurus
are not voted in, but who cares for him? I am the great SDG and I say:
they are! And in sum, whatever Prabhupada says, you can chuck that in
the circular file and accept me, the new guru for the universe. Wow!
What a humble guy I am! Why do we care for Rupa Goswami's authority"?
And so SDG concocts layers upon layers of vastly convoluted "standards
for devotees," even the purest of devotees, -- they are first the
subject of reams of rules for appointing, empowering by GBC votes,
sometimes voting out, excommunion, sannyasa ministry censure, and then
when this smokescreen fails, they are full of pain, anxiety,
headaches, that they are mentally and physically incapacitated. Gurus
actually need taking shelter of false mentors (asat-prasangat) such
as (karma-kanda) mundane psychotherapists, psychotropic drugs. And
according to SDG's "co-gurus" like Harikesha, pure devotees also need
to wear condoms when they have sex with their "therapists." Thus, on
the one hand, SDG and many similar cult leaders and his GBC's gurus
seem to have these same chronic, unexplained, mysterious, painful
mental anxiety "diseases." And we have seen SDG's "co-gurus" like
Harikesha, Mukunda, Hansadutta, Jaggadisha, Vipramukhya, Ramesvara,
Kirtanananda, Tamal, Giriraja, Jayadvaita, and many other GBC "gurus"
who also have some lengthy "unexplained illnesses"? They even often
admit that they are: "mentally ill." Why? Because they are totally out
of touch with Krishna. On the other hand, PADA's editor is barely in
touch with Krishna at all. Perhaps only a drop in a bucket's worth,
but that teeny drop of "Krishna connection" keeps PADA's editor almost
completely headache free, and for the most part, anxiety free as well?
We never need to take any drugs, what to speak of SDG's high powered
psychotropics? PADA editor's recent job health checkup nurse said,
"Lower than normal blood pressure, ninety nine percent good blood
oxygen levels (i.e. no signs of stress)." So, this would be more
normal for a devotee? Prabhupada says a devotee can expect good
health, blissful consciousness, and in sum a real devotee is the
antithesis of SDG.]
* I've tried to treat this disease in a number of ways. For ten years
I took no medicine of any kind, either herbal or allopathic, while
receiving treatment from a naturopathic doctor. Naturopathy did not
relieve me of my pain, nor did it make me better. It simply left me
underweight and anemic. I won't bore you with the list of alternative
medicines that I tried. From acupuncture to Ayurveda, I have tried
them all. But there were no positive results. When I first started
with allopathic treatments, I tried over-the-counter medicines and
soon wound up with what are called rebound headaches, where the "cure"
itself gives you headaches. I went to a doctor, who prescribed more
sophisticated and expensive medicines, which gave me a few days off
from the pain, but these too created rebound headaches.
[PADA: Yes, this is what happens to many similar GBC gurus and someone
like cult leader Jim Jones. They start taking "expensive allopathinc
medicines" -- otherwise known as psychotropics. They are "gurus" --
"stoned on drugs." Notice, the GBC's "gurus" often do not even discuss
taking shelter of Krishna, as they advertise they are doing. Rather,
they "seek shelter" in psychotherapy, medicines like percodan,
speculative psychics, astrologers, cheaters, bluffers, ghost busters,
female massage therapists, drug detox centers, mood music, LSD, ad
infinitum. And SDG is usually silent about everything until the GBC's
molester guru cult is in big trouble, then he suddenly emerges like a
troublesome spider from his cave to write some "position papers." And
he also writes "the new GBC's black list of devotees to purge,
threaten and harass," to help his molester guru project along, until
their controversial regime looks secure once again. Why doesn't SDG
try to write a paper, "How pure devotees are constantly paralyzed by
headaches, until they get relief from psychotropic drugs," -- and
"prove" this -- from scriptures? He cannot: because scriptures do not
describe a guru's pure devotional service in this manner? Ever. In
other words, SDG never has time to write a paper to describe his own
condition, or to help the devotees at large, but despite all apparent
health risks and great troubles, SDG has plenty of time to support the
worship of his favorite deviants and pedophiles as -- God's
successors?]
* It was despairing to live each day with constant and acute pain.
Somehow, in the hours in between pain, I managed to write, including
letters.
[PADA: Yes, it is true that Pope SDG "writes letters," but what does
he write? SDG is the imperious (GBC/ Papal Bull?) style "decree
writer" for the GBC, "Those who do not accept the GBC's (homosexual
pedophile) gurus are 'poison pens.'" Again, SDG has "plenty of time"
to write letters in defense of his favorite pedophile guru project,
but he has "no time" to address the ills and evils that his regime is
causing. And SDG's co-guru Hansadutta says there is only one cure for
these "guru" headaches: "Admit you are not a guru and tell your
followers they are Prabhupada's devotees, not yours." Hansadutta says
he is simply amazed that SDG does not give up his false guru posturing
and thus solve his "headaches" problem.]
* I even pursued a lot of traveling and visiting temples. Sometimes I
would give a Srimad Bhagavatam class and afterwards I would have to
lie down in a van in my bed all day. Then I would give another Srimad
Bhagavatam class the next day. Devotees didn't recognize symptoms of
migraine and many still can't.
[PADA: Why can't devotees "recognize" SDG's chronic migraine problem?
That is because the poor confused devotees read in Srila Prabhupada's
books, every day, that "Devotional service is eternal happiness, pure
ecstacy, bliss, and is joyfully performed, etc." The devotees are
baffled, why is devotional service all of a sudden "a painful
experience, stressful, anxiety, which produces the constant paralysis
of migraine headaches, which makes one bed-ridden and in need of
psychotropics and enemas like a ninety nine year old dementia
patient." This is what SDG admits above that, "many devotees still
can't recognize" -- what is the problem here? Because SDG contradicts
scriptures/ shastra. The scriptures say that pure devotees are
experiencing eternal bliss, not pain, misery and headaches? SDG is
confusing people, that is why they do not recognize/ understand what
he is saying: (a) that he is a mentally ill drug addict incapacitated
by headaches, which is (b) the "blissful and joyful symptom" of the
guru's pure devotional service to God? This is baffling.
As such, SDG is leveling a severe insult against Krishna and
devotional service, "You would not want to serve God would you?
Because then you'll have constant, painful, incapacitating, chronic
headaches, and you'll need mundane psychotherapists, and expensive
psychotropic drugs." SDG is attacking and belittling devotional
service. Prabhupada says devotional service is ever increasing
happiness or "sukha," whereas SDG says devotion to God is
"asukha-udarkam" -- more and more: unhapiness? This is why scriptures
says these false gurus (veda vada rata) are destined to go to the
darkest nether regions, since they say that pure (shaksat hari)
devotion to God is a worse form of darkness than regular mundane life.
So they will go to dark places of the worst darkness themselves. In
any case, the false gurus simply create chaos and confusion (as the
Fourth Canto states) as SDG admits, his followers are STILL baffled
about his "eternal pain" symptoms. We are not baffled, he is a
pasandi, a rewriter of the scriptures.]
* They didn't realize how sick I was. The travel and lecturing only
exacerbated my condition. Finally, my health almost reached a complete
breakdown. As some of you may remember, I was Guru and / or GBC
manager for a geographic zone including Ireland, much of the
Mid-Atlantic and Northeast United States, the Caribbean, Vancouver,
and Gita-Nagari farm. Over time, the weight of this service began
taking its toll on me until, with the illness, I was often confined to
bed.
[PADA: "I was the guru for a geographical zone"? Prabhupada says that
when a "guru" says he has "a geographical zone" -- this is proof that
he is bogus. The bona fide guru is the guru -- for all -- human
beings, not just a village or region. Herein SDG admits that he is one
of the founder fathers/ leaders of this bogus "zonal" guru idea. SDG
claims that "gurus" have designated franchise areas like some mundane
business (or as the smarta gurus of India). This is merely another
result of SDG's mental speculation. In a nutshell, (a) SDG says he and
his guru pals are the "current" acharyas/ messiahs. Simultaneously (b)
SDG's alleged messiahs are -- "and/or a GBC"? What? A messiah/ pure
devotee guru is not subordinate to -- a Governing Body, compromised of
neophytes? And notice, because juxtaposing these two functions is so
sinful, "I am often confined to bed."
Nor is there any recorded history of ANY pure devotee (diksha) "gurus"
being subordinated to a Governing Body, comprised of neophyte
devotees, as SDG proposes? No. "The guru" is in direct communion with
God (shaksat hari tvena) whereas the Church's "Governing Council"
members are another category of devotee altogether. The neophyte
"managers" are supposed to be "the disciples" of the pure devotees and
bona fide gurus. They act as the actual GURU'S preachers, proxies,
managers, priests, agents or representatives, aka GBC's. Satsvarupa
tries to artificially mix the two platforms: (a) neophyte devotees
(members of a Governing Body) or as he says "managers," and (b) the
messiah/ guru platform. SDG is somewhat like the medieval Papal
advocates, a manager, priest, or bishop is "voted in" as the de facto
messiah/ Pope, just as the GBC votes in their Popes/ gurus. No wonder
this is making him sick, this is the exact antithesis of the teachings
of the Vedas. There is no recorded history of any (uttama) pure
devotee/ guru/ messiah/ -- subordinating himself -- to the whims and
"votes" of the neophyte (kanistha) Church "manager" class of devotees.
This would be like a college professor "taking orders" from the
kindergarten class members? It is absurd. It is a contradiction, it is
hypocrisy, hence, the headaches.
SDG thinks a person like Jesus is some local village Church "manager"?
SDG cannot avoid insulting and minimizing pure devotees, even for a
second? He is constantly attacking them daily. Hence, his "daily"
headaches will continue for thousands, and more likely millions and
billions of years, without any relief in sight. SDG is simply yet
another version of the Pharisees, "The pure devotee is subordinate to
the Pharisee Governing Council," which is why Jesus says of these
Pharisee/ SDG types, "Oh ye hypocrites, sons of vipers." Of interest,
the Pharisees helped in getting Jesus attacked by the Romans, just as
SDG helps Tamal's "poisoning of Prabhupada" party. SDG's hero gurus
are heard on audio tape saying "the poison is going down" -- while
they are in Prabhupada's room, and so these are SDG's heros. The guru
attacking poisoners and SDG are holding hands under the table.
Of interest, a prominent SDG disciple recently said, "There is no
doubt that they (some GBC) are talking about giving Prabhupada poison
while they are in his room." Notice that SDG does not comment on this,
because that means, he has the blood of Prabhupada on his hands by
forcing ISKCON to worship these deviants, and keeping the devotees
away in 1977 so "the dirty deed" could be done. SDG also endorses the
GBC's goonda project which attacks Prabhupada's devotees, women,
children, cows. This is like an armed warfare between the Elite
Special Forces SWAT team vs. the "Sisters Of Charity" nuns. SDG helps
the armed SWAT team punch the lights out of the nuns. Face it, SDG is
the biggest cheerleader of the worship of child molesters and guru
poisoners and devotee beaters on the planet, which is why the
Isopanisad says the Yamadutta's have a special place reserved for
these false gurus. The Fifth Canto says this devotee beater crew will
be crushed in the rollers of Yamaraja. As Prabhupada notes, sometimes
the Yamadutta's cannot wait to get their hands on some renegades like
this. That is why SDG has "anticipatory anxiety headaches." He is
deeply worried, indeed "anticipating" that at his end, which is mighty
well nigh, maybe there is a God and he will be held accountable for
all of his support of all these deviations -- in Krishna's name? No
wonder many of the abused gurukulis "blame Prabhupada and Krishna,"
since this is what they were taught by this SDG fellow. So he will
have to answer for why he turned thousands or even millions of people
-- away -- from Krishna. The good news is that we would not trade our
fifty billion years of wretched dog-life's karma -- for one second of
SDG's future karma, since he has the karma no one EVER wants to face,
neither anticipatory headaches will save him.]
* This occurred simultaneously with a crisis in the GBC itself and
dissatisfaction within the members of the movement over the "zonal
guru" designation.
[PADA: This is another SDG smokescreen attempt, "The problem is that
the gurus that we falsely promoted, and crammed down your throats with
violence: have zones." No, the "problem" is that SDG's "Jesus-like
gurus," which he vociferously crammed down our throats, are
homosexuals, pedophiles, deviants, orchestrators of violence and
murders, and apparently -- poisoners of Prabhupada, ad infinitum?
Worse, SDG is one of the founder architects of "the zonal guru
system." He admits he has been in the illusion that gurus have
"zones"? They still do have zones? He therefore created his own
crises, and ISKCON's crises, and the scandalous guru imbroglio. Again
notice, SDG thinks the whole crisis was that "some gurus were under
the illusion of having zones," which neatly avoids the subsequent
multiple crises of: drug addict gurus, sex monger gurus, child
molesting gurus, machine gun gurus, LSD gurus, marriage breaking
preaching, devotees being banned, beaten and sometimes killed, the cow
torture problem, bad publicity, lawsuits, suicides, bankruptcy, ad
infinitum -- all of which are -- the results -- of his bogus zonal
gurus? He does not even discuss the byproducts of his bogus zonal
gurus? This is like Stalin. He said that the whole problem is that he
cannot find a good newspaper in Moscow. No, the problem is, his policy
of mass killing and so on?]
* At this time, I resigned from the GBC. I tried to keep traveling as
a sannyasi even with the realization that travel worsened my
headaches.
[PADA: Notice, instead of SDG admitting that his zonal guru program
was and is wrong, SDG merely sidestepped the issue and "resigned from
the GBC." Yet then he became their overall, overarching leader of the
entire GBC by declaring himself to be the GBC's main Pope/ mentor/
writer "guru." Now SDG was in a higher post than all the GBCs. He
appointed himself as the GBC's unimpeachable, totalitarian,
overarching guru/ leader/ messiah/ Pope -- and spokesman/ writer. SDG
did not want to be a mere GBC "manager," he wanted to be the
overarching guru of the entire ISKCON and its GBC, ruling the whole of
ISKCON by being the philosophical caretaker and "decree maker" (he is
the GBC's MAIN "position paper" writer). SDG has placed himself in
charge of the whole of ISKCON as its main "appointed and zonal guru"
thesis paper writer, and this de facto places him in charge of the
whole GBC by making himself their main architect i.e. "position paper"
writer/ apologist/ cheerleader/ spokesman/ guru. Yet, now he admits
that his new concoction: made his health condition "worsen." SDG
jumped out of the frying pan of being "a manager," into the fire of
being "the pure devotee, sum total of the demigods, messiah," and
"position paper" architect/ writer -- for his molester beeja guru
lineage. Then he wonders, why is my health condition "worsened"?
Because, his grandiose illusions of greatness were growing by leaps
and bounds and he became the main architect/ writer/ apologist for his
"enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophiles regime."
As one ex-gurukili said to PADA's editor, "How ya gonna 'splain that
to Yamaraja, Mr. SDG dude? You gonna write him a 'position paper'?
Hah. 'Child molesters and guru poisoners are equal to Krishna because
.....' And Yamaraja will say, 'Can someone shut that guy's yap up for a
few billion kalpas, I just can't take this barf-hole's crap for one
more second'"? Well stated, eh?
Notice the narcissism of SDG (sounds like a retread of Harikesha,
don't it folks), "my headache, my health crisis, my therapy." We took
a yellow magic marker to one page of SDG's "Journals" and underlined
where he uses the word "I" -- thirteen times -- on just one page.
Again notice. No mention of the molested and beaten and killed victims
of his policy. This is the classic symptom of a cult leader and
dictatorial tyrant (Stalin): self - absorption. Again, even up to
today, notice: SDG never seems to mention the molested kids, the
beaten-up devotees, the murders, the frozen to death cows, the
bankruptcy, the bad publicity, and so on, ad infinitum, due to his
deviant policies. The whole "issue" is just some minor league "zonal
guru" misunderstanding, which is nothing compared to "my headaches, my
pills, my therapy, my writing, my realization, my health, my travel,
my disciples, my preaching, my experience, my zone, my expensive
pills, my crisis, my new rubber boots, my kicking dead sea gulls on
the beach, my poem to Spiderman shoes, my art, my Journal, my diary,
my zen koan poems, my sannyasa, my siksa gurus Sridhara and Narayana,
my resignation from the GBC, my position papers, my mood music, my
massages, my psychic's advice, my Howard Johnson's motel room, my
motor home, my saxophone, my back ache, my female therapist -- who has
no certificate, my 'freestyle' writing, my phone calls to Ravindra, my
guru pal Kirtanananda, my allegience to the GBC, ad infinitum, etc."
SDG even wrote once about: "my enemas." Psychologists call this anal
retentive. My oh my, oh my me, oh me oh my, I my oh mine, my, I mean
me! Prabhupada says: I, me and mine. Yet notice, he fails to tell us
that the "zonal guru" concoction is created -- by him? This is his
"problem" and he ignores solving it. He worries about his me-oh-my
personal problems, but he has no concern for the society and its
members and how they are suffering under his bogus zonal guru policy,
and in sum, his enforced molester worship lineage policy. And what
about varnasrama, farms and the real orders of Prabhupada? Not
mentioned?
This is again why shastra says these cult leaders -- false gurus are
"destined for the most obnoxious regions," they have no feelings
towards the suffering of others. They are the most selfish --
self-absorbed people on the planet. And this is certainly reflected in
SDG's writings, he never seems to mention the victims of his policies,
but there is plenty of "my this, my that" -- to the ad nauseum extent.
Many tyrant dictators write in the same exact style, "my health, my
flower garden, my empire, my violin playing, my city plan, my army"
.... and in sum, Emperor Nero writes -- like SDG? This is why these
tyrant gurus are generally mentally and physically sick, a normal
devotee has NO CONCERN for himself. He ONLY thinks of service to, and
the welfare of, others, and of course Krishna, and he is moreover NOT
thinking of himself. To be obsessed with "my this, my that," this is
also what the greedy wealthy class of people indulge in, and as such
they are punished severely after death for their self-absorbed
program, and they also do not consider how they are hurting others,
just like SDG.]
* While many events in my life led to this condition, severe headaches
were first triggered by my experiences as a manager and "zonal guru."
[PADA: SDG's headaches are the result of his trying to live his own
contrived contradiction and "big lie." There is no such thing as a
"manager/ GBC -- AND/OR zonal guru" as he always says he is supposed
to be? These are all concocted designations. There has never been, in
the entire 5,000 years history of the Gaudiya Vaishnava society, "a
manager/ GBC -- and zonal guru." This is all deviation. A Church
Governing Body Council member (a neophyte/ aspirant/ sadhaka) is not
-- the messiah, i.e. the Jesus-like (parisad) guru. Nor is the
opposite true? There are specific capacities and functions for both
categories of devotees. The GBC says their gurus are pure devotees
(parisads), yet their gurus are (sadhakas) who are "not chanting their
rounds," so they fall down. No. The associates of God do not need to
follow any regulative practices, they are eternally liberated souls
who always think of Krishna? Do the pure devotees like the gopis have
to get up every morning an attend the regulative temple functions and
"chant their rounds"? No, they are beyond all these regulative
processes, they ALWAYS think of Krishna without any external practice
required. The GBC and SDG always mix up the sadhana devotee and the
self-realized devotee -- as one and the same platform. This is called
"sahajiya" (cheap imiation). And Srila Prabhupada says these
sahajiyas, bogus babajis and false pure devotees are headed for -- a
hellish destination for mixing these levels.]
* My work in ISKCON in these capacities involved doing kinds of
services for which I was not well suited.
[PADA: Surprise! No one is "suited" to be "a (sadhaka) manager/ GBC --
and zonal (parisad) guru" because there is no such thing? This is all
mental concoction.]
* My psychophysical nature is more to be a poet and writer and lead a
quiet life, not to be doing management and "quarreling" with god
brothers it hurt me to have to face my duties in this way.
[PADA: This is another SDG concoction, and another insult to Krishna
and His pure devotees. SDG says that gurus, pure devotee residents of
Vaikuntha, the messiahs from heaven, those who are "eternally
embracing Krishna" (Krishna lingita vigraha) -- are always angrily
snapping at each other and "quarreling" with each other like mundane
politicians? SDG always says this, that the "pure devotee messiah
gurus of the universe (Jagat)," "the assistants of the gopis," "the
residents of Vaikuntha," are always overcome by the sinful age of Kali
Yuga, and as such they are always "quarelling" and barking at one
another like a pack of vicious dogs. SDG thinks that God's Kingdom is
like some bar in East Los Angeles where there is arguing, if not knife
fights, going on all day. SDG has the lowest opinion of God and His
Kingdom than almost anyone on earth.
And as such "being in the association of Krishna's purest devotee
gurus: gives me a headache" says SDG. And SDG says this all the time,
the pure devotee messiah/ guru residents of Vaikuntha -- are always
serving Kali Yuga (sinfulness) and as such: "quareling." SDG says,
association with the pure devotees of God "gives me a headache"? I
would like to go to heaven, but that is a headache of pain and
quarrel. What! One can only imagine the pain SDG will endure for
insulting the kingdom of God -- as the reservoir of -- quarrel and
pain. Even if someone was to think about it for years together, he
could not insult God worse than this SDG, who says association with
God's pure devotees is a painful headache of vicious dog-like
quarrels. Of course SDG also says association with a pure devotee like
Jesus is sometimes: anal reconstructive surgery for boys.
In short, SDG says Krishna's abode of Vaikuntha is a place of: bogus
zonal territorial guru claims, vicious name-calling, arguing and
infighting, big egos, nasty and loud shouting quarrels, depression,
psychotherapy, psychotropic drugs, female counselors for the guru,
etc. And of course SDG has dragged in his other favorite
"qualifications for God's pure messiahs" such as that they may also
be: homosexuals, pedophiles, murderers, ad infinitum. So why would
anyone bother trying to "go back home to God," since it is more
peaceful to live in any sinful city in the world and have a more
peaceful existence than living in SDG's "Vaikuntha"? In sum, SDG says
that living with God in heaven is a hellish place full of fighting,
eternal pain, headaches, pedophile molesters etc., whereas the
material world is -- more like heaven, since at least here one can
get some nice psychotropic drugs and have some peace, albeit, being
stoned on drugs?]
* Finally, I found a psychiatrist M.D., who accurately diagnosed me as
suffering with anxiety disorder, the apparent cause of the migraines.
[PADA: Bona fide scriptures say that the residents of the spiritual
world of Vaikuntha, and indeed all beings on the pure spiritual plane,
are defined (also by Prabhupada) as "free of anxiety." Yet now, all of
a sudden the pure devotees are all "suffering from anxiety"? And
worse, now the residents of Vaikuntha have to: seek out, surrender to,
take shelter of ... some ordinary sinful man who reads about Sigmund
Freud's theories? SDG admits he is now a disciple of Sigmund Freud,
not Krishna? The guru is not taking shelter of God but instead:
Sigmund Freud? How can people listen to all this psycho-babble drivel
is what amazes us at PADA? The pure devotee angels from heaven, have
to come to visit Stockton California, and take shelter of Sigmund
Freud's "psychiatric help," here on planet earth? And worse, the pure
devotees now have to take lots of psychotropic drugs to relieve their
"anxiety"? Which previous acharyas had "anxiety disorders," which they
"cured" with Sigmund Freud's theories? And then they had to take
psychotropic drugs? Mundane "psychiatry" is clearly another form of
"mental speculation" of the karma kanda class of pasandis. It is
certainly not a recognized Vedic source of knowledge? Where does
Prabhupada say he wants his followers and "gurus" to surrender to
these mundane karmi speculative philosopher's ideas, the materialists,
and in short -- people who may perhaps -- not even believe in God? Or
they may take intoxicants, or frequent brothels, liquor houses, meat -
slaughterhouses, and gambling casinos? This is the source of "cures
and inspiration" -- for the residents of the spiritual world? Freud
was right about one thing however, he says many (ordinary) men "wanted
to have sex with their mothers." And Srila Prabhupada says that
"having sex with another man's wife is exactly like having -- sex with
your mother." Freud -- is right -- about SDG, at least. Also, someone
wrote to tell us that Pranada is not a certified psychotherapist? How
did she get tossed into this mix, SDG fails to tell us? He needs
therapy, or he needs a woman? He is still holding back important
details.]
* Additionally, when I worry that I'm going to get a headache, the
worrying itself actually causes a migraine. This is called
anticipatory anxiety syndrome. He prescribed that what we must do is
stop the pain.
[PADA: Yes, the "good doctor" prescribed a bunch of "expensive," and
powerful chemical psychotropic medications, just like Hansadutta, Jim
Jones and many other "gurus and messiahs" ended up: taking shelter of
intoxication. "Stoned on meds." So SDG went to a psychiatrist to get a
prescriptions for drugs, which is also by the way many B-grade
Hollywood actors and forgotten music stars do all the time, as anyone
who has read their latest issue of "National Inquirer" knows very
well. "Courtney Love has been taking psychotropic drugs, so therefore,
she is the pure devotee guru of the Jagat"? These forgotten actors and
worn-out singers are all the time caught taking such pschyotropics,
and they are also joining SDG by going to a psychotherapist, blah,
blah, blah. These are not the "pastimes of the pure devotees saints
from heaven"? This is also what happens all the time here in our fine,
albeit foggy, city of San Francisco. Some dirty crazy man starts
screaming and cursing on the street, and the regular business people
say, "Oh, this crazy man -- he forgot to see his psychotherapist today
and get his prescription of 'meds.'" This is the platform of
"assisting God in His pure conjugal pastimes"? One has "anxiety attack
disorder" and needs his medications, and so, that makes him "the guru
of the universe"?]
* This became our priority. He said that the side effects of medicine
were not as dangerous for me at the present moment as complications
from chronic pain. At the same time, I should enter counseling and
fully occupy myself with trying to improve my situation with this kind
of health treatment. I began to try to balance my healthcare needs
with my responsibilities to Prabhupada and my disciples. The choice of
counselor did not work out. First of all, especially for a sannyasi,
it's not ideal that the counselor and the client be of different
sexes. Among devotees, however, there were not many counselors from
which to choose. This person was recommended by a close disciple and
another devotee counselor because she had the same disease and had
received treatment for it. In fact, she had not been formally trained
as a counselor.
[PADA: Well again, if this is Pranada, according to our sources, she
is not a professional counselor, as SDG admits herein? The reason
Pranada was chosen was -- not -- that she was a counselor? So why was
she "giving psychotherapy counsel" -- if she was not qualified? This
is another mystery. Harikesha also had a counselor, also a woman, who
had no degree in counseling, but was handy at "physical intimacy"?
Perhaps the reason SDG chose Pranada as his mentor is: that she is a
female? And he merely wanted female association? SDG says Pranada also
had the same type of nervous breakdown? Why? Because SDG has tampered
with, and ended, ... her first marriage? In any case, a person who
has had a nervous breakdown is now, the mentor/ counsel for -- the
Jagat guru of the universe? SDG simply raises more questions than he
gives answers. Notice also, "the priority" is not -- fixing ISKCON,
getting the devotees back who were viciously purged, and so on.
* At first, we began working by exchanging correspondence. By
telephone, she would give me different practices to do like breathing
and listening to certain tapes that aid a person with my condition.
Anxiety disorder is actually a widely prevalent disease in the United
States, which affects millions of people.
[PADA: Great! All of a sudden: a person like Jesus, the sum total of
the demigods, the uttama adhikary guru, the assistant of the gopis,
the person who absorbs sins of the universe, like Jesus is -- just
like "millions" of ordinary pill popping psychotherapy patients, who
have to listen to breathing technique tapes, relaxation mood music,
.... or black ghetto music, which SDG is supposedly hearing? Again, SDG
thinks the guru is an ordinary man, and worse, the guru is a lower
grade ordinary man, he needs mental help, mood music, chemical pills,
to carry on? He cannot even function on the most basic levels?]
* There was not too long ago a cover story about it in Time Magazine.
[PADA: Great, gurus like Jesus -- have chronic migraines and need
pills and psychotherapy? We missed that story?]
* She recommended that we have person-to-person sessions, in which she
could try to confront the anxiety disorder. At first, this work
produced some good results. Unfortunately, a naturally occurring
emotional attachment between the counselor and client was mishandled.
As soon as we realized what was happening, we saw the danger of it
me being a sannyasi and she a married woman. We talked seriously and
decided that we had to stop our counseling, and end our friendship,
having no contact at all. I see no reason to go into further detail
except to say that we did become physically intimate and this was
wrong.
[PADA: But gurus do not need psychotherapists? Period? And SDG was
physically intimate, with a married woman? So he do not respect the
order of sannyasa, or the order of marriage? And he says gurus need to
surrender to Sigmund Freud? Sigmund Freud smokes a pipe, what has SDG
been smoking in his pipe is the question here? Paint thinner?]
* Question 2: Why were you silent about the inappropriate action until
it had been exposed?
Answer 2: We did not see the need for it since the relationship had
been completely closed. My disciples and many others could suffer
because of just one incident.
[PADA: There has not been just one incident? There has been thousands
of scandals amongst your gurus and you never admit that the whole
thing is a farce and an insult to the platform of pure devotion?]
* To broadcast it all over would simply cause more harm than good.
Those who theorize about the truth and say that anything other than
broadcasting is a "cover up" have a technical and theoretical
definition of truth, which is not necessarily absolute.
[PADA: What kind of word jugglery is this? Those who "theorize" about
the truth, want -- a cover-up? The truth is a theory and not
"absolute." What you see is not what you get. READ: We can bend the
truth to fool our followers. Go to court and say "the truth is a
theory and not an absolute fact." Well SDG will have to tell that to
Yamaraja, so get himself ready.]
* I saw a higher morality in continuing on with my devotional service
by working through this test on a daily basis in counseling, this time
with a trained male devotee counselor. I felt I was rectifying the
mistake within my relationship with Prabhupada and Krsna and that the
greater good would be served by trying to protect my community of
loved ones.
[PADA: There is no "mistake"? You made a conscious choice to have
physical intimacy with a female counselor?]
Question 3: Why did it take so long to hear from you after the news
came out?
Answer 3: An anonymous letter was sent to the Sannyasa Minister, who
began an investigation. Dissatisfied with the pace of the inquiry, the
anonymous author posted his story on the Internet.
[PADA: Well we are still dissatisfied. You now say that the acharyas
are subordinate to "managers," and Sigmund Freud, and "a sannyasa
ministry." Which previous acharyas were subordinate to a sannyasa
ministry? Why is sannyasa ministry leader, Prahladananda -- in charge
of the acharyas? If he is the "greater authority" than the acharya?
And if so, why is he not made the main acharya of ISKCON instead of
his tenth class status as a GBC lackey? Why do acharyas need to be
"investigated" for evil actions? Why was the author of the SDG scandal
letter forced to be anonymous, because he will be repressed otherwise?
Again, this raises more unanswered questions.]
* I had already responded to the Ministry as well as the GBC Executive
Committee and they had asked that I not write my letter to my
disciples in order for them to have time to conduct a proper inquiry.
Out of respect for their request, I did not communicate with you
directly at first. This accounts for why you didn't hear from me, why
I was silent. You had to hear rumors about me while I could say
nothing from my side. I had to wait for the GBC to come to their final
conclusions and it took a long time. I was on pins and needles every
day waiting. At the end, I felt I was again collapsing from the
pressure that was building. I was waiting for it for myself and I was
waiting for it for you. My hands were tied; I could not tell you.
[PADA: Why are the acharya's hands tied by a committee? Which previous
acharyas could not speak because they had to wait for some committee,
the same committee that says homosexual pedophiles are in the chain of
Krishna's successors? Thanks pd]
Thanks for posting this. Yes, all the issues accrosss the board need to be discussed. The ritvik issue is not a "stand alone" issue, because there are also results of over-stepping this order such as: woman and child abuse, changing the books, changing the siddhanta, guru scandals, bankrupting ISKCON, bad publicity, devotee purges, ad infinitum, so we address all these issues, why only one teeny fraction such as the ritvik connundrum?
We are making good headway also with our poison case, and we have distributed hundreds of copies of our book "Judge For Yourself" and almost cent percent who read it say, this is correct, including a few ISKCON leaders who told me they agree but they have to keep their names out for now. .... hey, hey, hey!
We also have this book free as a download on the net and hundreds have down loaded it. We also have hundreds of Brijabasis on board with our poison case analysis and bad manager GBC analysis, and -- indeed some of the are publicly protesting in front of the Krishna Balarama mandir right now as we speak.
So, we should not help the Brijabasis, the residents of the holy dhama, and only speak of ritvik? No, we want to help them as well? We are supposed to serve the devotees, and that means, all the devotees. We, by the way, founded the ritvik argument by circulating the will, the May 28th tape and the July 9th letter in the mid 1980s, so it is also important, but everything else is important too. thanks for your support, ys pd
:)
Yes, we all know you were the first one to reveal many things. No one is ungrateful. We are all very appreciative and thankful. Your discoveries have brought you a lot of respect.
Initially.
Being first does not give you the right to act in such obnoxious ways or refuse to take advice from godbrothers or godsisters, as if you are above being corrected.
It does not give you the right to mistreat or smart mouth anyone who will not agree with your words 100% tho they are ritvik too. Causing anxiety to other ritviks can't be good for your karma or spiritual life.
Being first does not give you any right to maintain obsessive addictivness, pretending you don't have it tho many devotees have told you that you do. Your last long post proved you have it. (Take advice for a change.)
You maintain respect for first discoveries by maintaing Vaisnava behavior. Otherwise you are modifying the good effects of what you have done, with all the bad you are doing now. There is never loss, but there is payment to be collected.
Also many say you want to be given the credit as the 'savior' of Prabhuapda's Movement, by trying to get devotees to wake up to recognition of ritvik. How is that humble? Almost like you want to be the guru of the ritvik movement. We can't move forward unless you get credit for being first and for saving the movement? Makes you then no different from iskcon. Your works won't go in vain, but working alone is trying to gain too high of a postion, and you are not beyond falldown risks yourself.
You need to let down that false ego and work together. Jaudarani use to also brag she was first disciple, and now look where that got her. Over at Narayana Maharaja's camp. Being first only means first to have the opportunity. It doesn't make you any better or smarter or wiser then anyone else. Anyone can misuse being first.
Where are the other first disciples of Prabhuapada? Many are gone, before even the movement had fallen, many left. But hey, they were first.
Yes, you get credit because you found the information first, but you dont know what to do with it. How much of what you speak or type is truthfully about preaching, and how much is about the joy you get from yelling and screaming at everyone. If you were such a good preacher, you would be using better methods then the methods you are. You may be good researcher, you find things. But lousy preacher if all you can mostly portray is anger personified. As we use to treat, mistreat, the karmi on the street, throwing scriputre at them, telling them they are going to hell for eating meat, etc., etc., now you preach to us this same method.
Tulasi
Thanks for your post Tulasi devi. I am not sure what you mean that I want to be the guru of the ritviks? I presented the info, and still analyse GBC documents such as SDG's letters, and have written letters and documents since 1978 when I said Jayatirtha was doing the wrong thing then. Was I wrong about him?
Since 1978 I have written over 10,000 pages of letters and newsletters and so on, at least according to one of my recipients. I will be the writer and you can be the guru?
A number of folks have asked me to give them ritvik initiation, and I refused, partly because of people like you saying this would make me the guru. I have no interest in being the guru of anything or having idyoots claim -- he is thinking of being the new guru?
I now have a good team working with me on the poison case and we are preparing another bigger book on the topic and others even in ISKCON are writing to tell me they are with us (see our next newsletter for one of their letters) and we have other confidential plans for this issue. What advice can you give me here? Give it, and we need it, but what is it? You say take advice, but what is the advice here? Quit the poison case -- just when it is taking off? Or what is your order for us?
What good "advise" have I failed to take? You fail to mention? You said I mention the sex issue, no we cited Jayadvaita, he mentioned it, the GBC also mentions it, Narayana Maharaja mentions it, everybody in ISKCON talks about it? I think you are way out of the loop? Everyone talks about the GBC and their scandals, this has been in the newspapers, Time magazine, you have been -- where while this has gone on? Jayatirtha had his head whacked, over the sex issue, and you think it is a minor league trouble?
Children were molested, again you think this is minor "sex" issue? You are baffling us? I also told people there was a crisis in the homosexual guru/ molest issue, and now the GBC are talking about selling Laguna and Berkeley and other properties to pay for that. That means, people should have stood with me and helped?
Or are you saying it is fine to let the whole thing burn to ashes, and it was good to let the molesting go on, and it was wrong for me to protest? What is your exact proposal? Tell me exactly what your new plan is, and I will gladly consider that. You simply forgot to tell me what your plan is? I am trying to be your humble dog servant, but you are beating me with a newspaper for not following your orders, but you give me no detailed plan of -- what is the better plan? So you are beating on me, thanks for that, but for what, I have no idea? Please be merciful and tell me what it is you want me to do now, I promise to consider, thanks ys pd
:cry:
Notice, as soon as we request a detailed plan of how we can cooperate, there is silence. This also occured when we asked Adridharna to translate the hindi/ bengali for the November 10th tapes, he said "you do it," knowing I do not speak hindi. So I had the (karmi?) editor of the Los Angeles Patrika Bazaar Bengali paper do the translations for me, no devotees would touch it at first. Then, four months later, Adri writes written public complaints, "Puranjana's hinid is wrong since he cannot speak hindi." Of course all of the residents of Vrindavana who later have heard our tape analysis agreed FULLY ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with our translation. Sometimes "the devotees" want us to cooperate with them, and that means, do nothing but protect the bad guys? This is one of thousands of similar stories? We want to work with the devotees, where are you when we need you? Hello? Many devotees have joined us since though, so we go forward with or without our "help"! Thanks ys pd
Don't tease me and get my hopes up.
BTW...I probably won't be around for a while so have a field day!
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all. I am shocked to still see the likes of these false devotees parading their hate infected ideas on others and pretending to love Krishna, they say they are honouring our Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada but no, they completely disrespect Him by this rubbish ritvik, these two individuals plagued Paltalk too, but in there they had not the courage to claim to be ritvik,that is Rukimini and her henchman Damordar, these are the examples of what preachers should not do and that is turn people away from Krishna Consciousness,they treat wonderfull Vaishnavas like Govindaram with disrespect and turn guilable young devotess like Prabhupada dasa away from the truth, what you two so called eldely devotees should be doing is to encourage people to worship Krishna, even that poor Prabhupada dasa is not able to do 16 rounds a day ,and untill you are practising pure devotional service ,none of you are in a position to preach to others. :oops:
Me either, I am done now. I don't wish to participate in this, this will be my final post, on this forum, as it has become infected, I will part ways now with you, and all.
-----------------
Thanks prabhu. This is called "maunam samyam raksati." He is defeated and so he is forced to retreat in silence, as shastra says his "silence" proves he is wrong. Maunam equals defeat, and also raksati, protection of the wrong ideas. Very good. Yes, as soon as we say Krishna's successors are pure (saksat hari tvena -- no less) and not deviants, and this is supported by shastra (acaryam mam vijnaniyam: for example) then the deviant gurus lineages have to cringe and retreat at these words of shastra, and this has gone on since 1979 when we said to the GBC: gurus do not ingest LSD and have illicit sex with their disciples?
The reply the GBC gave me then was to kick me out of ISKCON claiming that God's successors, and their alleged "assistants of the gopis" need to get loaded on drugs and have illicit sex because "Sridhara Maharaja of the Gaudiya Matha supports Jayatirtha." Of course, later on Jayatirtha's head was whacked by a disgruntled disciple since it seems that not everyone agrees with the GBC: that God's successors are drug addicted sex mongers?
So notice, our citing shastra is what they consider as infection, as Jayadvaita says, the GBC gurus are engaged in "illicit sex with men, women and children" and as soon as we say SHASTRA says this is "gurusuh narah matih ... narakah sah -- (i.e. hellish misconception)," they retreat, although we do get threats of violence and so on as their usual reply from time to time since 1978.
So maunam, he is defeated. Very good. He has no shastra to defend his position, and his previous quoting of BG Narasingha aka Jagat Guru, the worshipper of the founder of the 1936 homosexual and deviant "guru" Vasudeva, did not work either. Thanks, your non illicit sex with men, women and children worshippers, Puranjana dasa :shock:
(pada@neteze.com)
Geeze Puranjana, just whenI think you're preacihng good, you bring up all the homo stuff and sex stuff. It's like your obsessed. Everywhere I go, I have to convince people ritviks are good and right and not like the fundamentalism preached by Puranjana. Devotees hear I'm ritvik and tell me I am crazy like Puranjana! They think the words ritvik and Puranjana are the same and go together exclusively! This obsession of yours to always point out the sex garbage is brining about a disservice to Prabhupada's ritvik movement, not a service! :shock: oh how true that these ritviks are obsessed with sex and not only that but their are obsessed with money and the material life, its funny that most of the ritvik learders have been thrown out of leadership positions within ISKCON,maybe this is their foul way of trying to grab some of the limelight for themselves,have you read their silly magazine called Back to Godhead,that magazine is a sure way of turning people away from any sort of devotional practise. :shock:
ROTFLMAO...duh...Arya...TulasiDevi is ritvik. Read her post. LOL!!!! Too funny!
As for your other post...nice example. Obviously the only reason you came in here was to beat up on some ritviks!! But your blows feel like feathers...barely a tickle.
Well, Arya, you and your little gang of thugs on Paltalk do not affect me. I have better things to do than try to defend myself to a bunch of faceless brainwashed individuals. I removed paltalk from my computer about a month ago and have no desire to deal with it ever again. Too much foolishness, speculation and just plain misinformation from wannabe gurus who don't even take the time to read Prabhupada's books and desire to jump over Him. Then argue with those who do read and do their best to follow. No thanks...I don't need the poison.
BTW...how many times was it that you banned Govindaram from your room? As for Prabhupada dasa...I don't know him other than here so I find it odd that I would be such a strong influence on him. To be honest - if I were he would be chanting 16 rounds. However, he was hanging out and listening to Govindaram for a long time who has confessed on many occasions that he is unable to chant....hmmm....interesting.
Goodbye Arya. I don't have time for you on Paltalk nor do I have time for you here. Have a nice trip on the path to self-appointed or voted in guruhood.
Go back to your little fan club and soak in the praise from those who don't know any better.
Devotees hear I'm ritvik ! :shock: oh how true that these ritviks are obsessed with sex and not only that but their are obsessed with money and the material life, its funny that most of the ritvik learders have been thrown out of leadership positions within ISKCON,maybe this is their foul way of trying to grab some of the limelight for themselves,have you read their silly magazine called Back to Godhead,that magazine is a sure way of turning people away from any sort of devotional practise. :shock:
[quote]Govindaram: So what if the Ritvik Priests fall-down?
Devotee 108 said -
Some ritviks feel the ritvik officiating acarya must be some type of guru and never fall down. Others feel he just does the ceremony then walks away cuz the disciple isn't his in the first place. This needs to be discussed. But the bottom line is, regardless of which side one leans toward, unlike the iskcon gurus who fell down which resulted in many disciples freaking out and loosing it, some giving up their spiriutal life because their faith was wrapped up in their guru, *with the ritvik priest, should he fall down, then at least the devotee still has their link thru Prabhupada. That is the most important point.
Govindaram said
I would like to see you discuss, this time I am not being sarcastic.
Thank you Govindaram prabhu. I appreciate your sincerity.
I do agree it must be discussed, but I did not mean for it to become a major point because first, most of the real tapes have been hidden or damaged or tampered with, etc. As well as documentation. Therefore its hard to know what Prabhuapda said on the details of ritvik since the iskcon authorities did all this damage. So yes, it needs to be discussed, but that can come later. The more important point is that we follow Prabhupada's instructions. I realize it is hard to believe anyone would damage or destroy his instructions. All I can say is that for me, I took the time to investiage it and did not jump on any bandwagon. I found out for myself, and I agree you too must find out for yourself, either way.
*How did you work that out? Unless the Guru is physically present, how can he oversee the Initiations?
What makes you think Prabhupada is not present? As for physically present, this is an iskcon and GM idea, not a Prabhupada idea. I have a quote (somewhere, but I can find it if you want it) where someone was criticizing the Christians to Prabhupada. They said they have no guru. And Prabhuapda stopped them and said yes, they do have a guru. They asked how this is possible, and Prabhuapada explained that because they are following the Bible, therefore they are accepting Jesus as their guru.
So you see, it was not Prabhupada who preached the guru must be physically present. That is a newer idea.
In the same way a disciple of Prabhupada who is acting as Guru should the Guru fall-down, then the situation is the same,
That may sound good to you on paper, but I have seen in real life, when the disciples of these diska gurus who have fallen down hear about it, so many have serious damage to their own spiritual life as well. If on the other hand they had Prabhupada as their guru, they would not feel they lost their link or connection. And I remember Prabhupada said that we may fall down but he never would.
as far as I can see the track record for fall-downs is not the issue, its sticking to Sampradaya.
Both are the issue, because if a guru falls down, how can he really be a guru? A guru is one who never falls down, and I am not repeating any rhetoric I have heard anywhere. I have actually read where Prabhuapda has siad this.
Anyway, the other issue of sticking to the sampradaya, I don't understand why you think there is any loss of sampradaya. First, it's the same sampradaya we were following when Prabhuapda was with us and giving initiations. Sometimes he was physically present, sometimes he had the temple president perform the ceremony on his behalf. But always, the sampradaya remained in tact. Just because his physical presence is not with us now, does not mean he has left us. Prabhupada said he will not die but lives forever in his books. As well as, the Vaisnava dies to live and in living spreads the holy name around. So, we need not loose our faith, as he never leaves us. He will always be there for us. There is no question of a loss of Sampradaya. Prabhupada would not instruct us to do something that would cause us to disconnect from it. So this is the real issue, that Prabhupada did indeed instruct us to be ritvik, and it therefore is what actually maintains the Sampradaya. To say there would be loss of Sampradaya in this way would be the same as saying Prabhupada didn't know what he was doing and gave us an instruction that would cause such damage. Not so. Matter of fact, as more and more splinter gurus and splinter gruops appear, there is a greater risk of loss of our Sampradiya! The only way we can keep our Sampradaya is by keeping Prabhupada the guru, as he will always and eternally be linked there.
Actually, that's not true. It has been done. When you read the dates of the appearances and disappearances of the acarayas in our sampradaya, you do not see each and every one of them leaving this world with the very next one in line appearing and at right age to take disciples, on the heals of their passing. Even, there are often big gaps. So how did the initiations go on? The ritvik system was used and because it was used, you will not see anyone else trying to put THEIR name along with the names of these other great pure devotee acarays. You will not see their names listed as part of our parampara system because they do not try to take credit.
Govindaram said
Give me an example when Ritvik system was used in our Sampradaya, that's OUR sampradaya.
I'm too tired to do any research 'for' you right now, but I just logcally explained it above. It makes too much sense. If you dont want to accept, that is your right.
Why on earth would I care what the Gaudiya Math would accept? Prabhupada said stay away form Gaudiya Math. He was very firm about this and found them to be constantly after his disciples, his movemennt. It is an offense to go over to the Gaudiya Math. I only care if ;Prabhupada accepts these initiations. Bhaktisiddhanta himself said no one in the Gaudiya Math was qualified, except for Prabhupada. And, since Prabhupada has instructed that we do them (after all, we never even heard of the word "ritvik" before Prabhupada said it), therefore he will accept.
The first line in your so-called reply says it all, you don't care for any authority,
You're twisting my words. I am beginning to notice you do that a lot. I never ever said I dont care for "any" authority. I clearly said I dont accept GAUDIYA MATH authority. They are not the same authority as Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada left them for a reason, and if you are part of them, then never the twain shall meet. I wil always stick to Prabhuapda and his leaving. I will not join with what he left. HE is my authority, not them. Maybe they are yours. Fine. But then go with them. Surrnder unto them. Move into their temple.
you desire of-course to surrender unto Prabhupada, but in reality you know you cannot,
So you've given up sarcasm for spiritual put-downs and hitting below the belt. You know nothing of me or what degree I am surrendered or not surrendered. Matter of fact, why dont you tell us when you moved into the temple and got trained up? When you had to wait in line for the shower or for your breakfast day after day? When you had to clash up against the false egos of others you live with but because you are all trying to get purified you used it to get humble? Please tell us the last time you went out on book distribution and if you have given up tv, moved out from your mothers house and lived on your own? Next time you are going to judge, remember you have put yourself up for being judged as well.
so you make a show-vote
What an awful thing to accuse me of. And yet I have never once seen you appolgize to myself or anyone else you have been cruel to here. You are never wrong and can't make a mistake? Can't be humble enough to apologize for the insults you keep slinging? You expect NICE replies and are shocked so many give you nasty ones? You get what you give. You must be nice if you want kindness in return. So far I see replies that indicate trickery, not honest Vaisnava exchanges from you, but a come-on, so you can give a dig once you get a person to trust you a little.
to say there are no Pure devotees left to surrender and serve, this is my conclusion.
For the hundredth time, I have never said there are no pure deovtees! It appears you read what you want to read, hear what you want to hear. Let me try to explain this to you once again. I have said, repeatedly, that there ARE other pure devotees on this planet. I have said, repeately, that we don't know how to recognize them so in OUR movement, our Isckon movement, Prabhuapda has protected us by telling US what to do. I have said I am speaking of OUR movement only and not that there arent other pure devotees on the planet. And I have said we are to follow Prabhupada's instructions.
You want to keep finding angles around his instructions, nothing I can do about that. I suspect you are influenced by Gaudiya Math, maybe even into one of their gurus. Then why not go there? I don't mind you here, I just can't understand why you enjoy an arguement when you know no one will change there mind here, and even you insult after insult to those who approah you with kindness and try to make peace. To some people, fighting is sense gratification.
Devotee 108 :lol: Desciple: Once I remember John Lennon asked you, "How will I know who is the genuine Guru?" And you said just find out the one who is most addicted to Krishna.He is genuine. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The genuine guru is God's representative,and he speaks about God and nothing else.The genuine guru is he who has no interest in materialistic life.He is after God,and God only.That is one of the tests of a genuine guru:brahma-nistham.He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth...The real guru will not manufacture anything.Everything he says is in accordance with the scriptures and the previous acaryas.He will not give you a mantra and tell you that you will become God in six months.This is not a guru's buisness.A guru's buisness is to canvass everyone to become a devotee of God...Anyone ,it doesn't matter who, be he Hindu, Muslim, or Christian , is a guru if he convinces people to love God.That is the test. The guru never says ,I am God ,or I will make you God, The real guru says I am a servant of God, and I will make you a servant of God also. It doesn't matter how the guru is dressed.As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, Whoever can impart knowlege about Krishna is a spiritual master. So there you have it the words of Srila Prabhupada himself, and that lays to rest once and for all that the ritviks are WRONG. Yes you can complain about the bad gurus in ISKCON, but even Srila Prabhupada has said there is no bad gurus as a bad was never was guru in the first place, So the onus is on us to find a guru, but if you have chosen a bad one ,then you did not chose a guru at all. So it would do all the power of good to actually read Srilla Prabhupada's teaching instead of pretending to know everything yourselves. I rest my case. :D
ROTFLMAO...duh...Arya...TulasiDevi is ritvik. Read her post. LOL!!!! Too funny!
As for your other post...nice example. Obviously the only reason you came in here was to beat up on some ritviks!! But your blows feel like feathers...barely a tickle.
Well, Arya, you and your little gang of thugs on Paltalk do not affect me. I have better things to do than try to defend myself to a bunch of faceless brainwashed individuals. I removed paltalk from my computer about a month ago and have no desire to deal with it ever again. Too much foolishness, speculation and just plain misinformation from wannabe gurus who don't even take the time to read Prabhupada's books and desire to jump over Him. Then argue with those who do read and do their best to follow. No thanks...I don't need the poison.
BTW...how many times was it that you banned Govindaram from your room? As for Prabhupada dasa...I don't know him other than here so I find it odd that I would be such a strong influence on him. To be honest - if I were he would be chanting 16 rounds. However, he was hanging out and listening to Govindaram for a long time who has confessed on many occasions that he is unable to chant....hmmm....interesting.
Goodbye Arya. I don't have time for you on Paltalk nor do I have time for you here. Have a nice trip on the path to self-appointed or voted in guruhood.
Go back to your little fan club and soak in the praise from those who don't know any better.
Devotees hear I'm ritvik ! :shock: oh how true that these ritviks are obsessed with sex and not only that but their are obsessed with money and the material life, its funny that most of the ritvik learders have been thrown out of leadership positions within ISKCON,maybe this is their foul way of trying to grab some of the limelight for themselves,have you read their silly magazine called Back to Godhead,that magazine is a sure way of turning people away from any sort of devotional practise. :shock: :oops: I dont normally respond to these reply but all I can say is that none of you are fit to represent Krishna Consciousness untill you have pure love of God which is in your case Rukmini and Damodar a billions miles out of your reach, so please concentrate on Krishna always and by chanting at least 64 rounds a day ,instead of rockling around in places you are not fit to be in will help you spread Krishna Consciousness :lol: and if anyone is spreading poison then look to yourself,the only thing worth spreading is love of God not hatred of his devotees,which you and your henchman is doing,anyway chant Hare Krishna ,and Krishna will suck the poison out of your breasts.
I am shocked to still see the likes of these false devotees parading their hate infected ideas
Note for admin: sorry I cannot loggin to my other nick, I have tried, I hope its ok to use this nick :roll: :lol:
Hare Krishna
I don't mean to call anybody false, but attitude is not very nice, far as I can see, I have been somewhat somber, but I guess when your think your right, then the other person is the Aparadhi, so ..
This is material not trancendental.
Anyway, I am attracted by Vaishnava's like Prabhupada/Sridhara Maharaja/Puri Maharaja, by default :D :D The latter is my choice.
Haribol prabhu
Hmmm...it appears that you should have stuck to not answering replies as you have shown yourself here to be one who considers himself guru and has committed the offense of jumping over Srila Prabhupada.
I feel it is safe to say that you should not consider yourself so advanced and pure that you know who is and is not a devotee. Very dangerous thinking. Is this how they teach you to act at the guru school?
I am reminded here to not respond anymore to your little spiels as any response of any kind seems to open the door for you to commit offenses.
Word of advice and this might be difficult for you: Check your ego at the door.
Good bye Arya. Have a nice life and I am certain we will be seeing your name on the guru list sometime in the future. You have learned your lessons well.
But I will no longer give you reason to commit more offenses by responding to any of your charades.
:oops: I dont normally respond to these reply but all I can say is that none of you are fit to represent Krishna Consciousness untill you have pure love of God which is in your case Rukmini and Damodar a billions miles out of your reach, so please concentrate on Krishna always and by chanting at least 64 rounds a day ,instead of rockling around in places you are not fit to be in will help you spread Krishna Consciousness :lol: and if anyone is spreading poison then look to yourself,the only thing worth spreading is love of God not hatred of his devotees,which you and your henchman is doing,anyway chant Hare Krishna ,and Krishna will suck the poison out of your breasts.
ROTFLMAO...duh...Arya...TulasiDevi is ritvik. Read her post. LOL!!!! Too funny!
As for your other post...nice example. Obviously the only reason you came in here was to beat up on some ritviks!! But your blows feel like feathers...barely a tickle.
Well, Arya, you and your little gang of thugs on Paltalk do not affect me. I have better things to do than try to defend myself to a bunch of faceless brainwashed individuals. I removed paltalk from my computer about a month ago and have no desire to deal with it ever again. Too much foolishness, speculation and just plain misinformation from wannabe gurus who don't even take the time to read Prabhupada's books and desire to jump over Him. Then argue with those who do read and do their best to follow. No thanks...I don't need the poison.
BTW...how many times was it that you banned Govindaram from your room? As for Prabhupada dasa...I don't know him other than here so I find it odd that I would be such a strong influence on him. To be honest - if I were he would be chanting 16 rounds. However, he was hanging out and listening to Govindaram for a long time who has confessed on many occasions that he is unable to chant....hmmm....interesting.
Goodbye Arya. I don't have time for you on Paltalk nor do I have time for you here. Have a nice trip on the path to self-appointed or voted in guruhood.
Go back to your little fan club and soak in the praise from those who don't know any better.
Devotees hear I'm ritvik ! :shock: oh how true that these ritviks are obsessed with sex and not only that but their are obsessed with money and the material life, its funny that most of the ritvik learders have been thrown out of leadership positions within ISKCON,maybe this is their foul way of trying to grab some of the limelight for themselves,have you read their silly magazine called Back to Godhead,that magazine is a sure way of turning people away from any sort of devotional practise. :shock: :lol: duh Rukmini I know shes ritvik but at least she's honest about what ye are obsessed about ,sex,
[PADA: The ritviks are at least worshipping a pure devotee, namely Srila Prabhupada. So, whether the ritviks are involved in illicit sex personally, like the GBC's "Vishnupada gurus" are doing anyway, they at least do not worship illicit sex as "Vishnupada," what to speak of homosexuals and pedophiles of the GBC's and Gaudiya Matha's guru lineages.
A follower of Narayana Maharaja handed me their "Guru Tattva" booklet, and the first page we opened to says, and we quote directly: "There is nothing wrong with making (homosexual bogus guru) Vausudeva the guru in 1936." So they think there is "nothing wrong" with their worship of illicit sex as "Vishnupada," whereas the ritviks ar least do not worship illicit sex?
Again, Jayadvaita swami, spokesman for the post 1977 guru lineage says the GBC gurus have been engaged in "illicit sex with men, women and children." Notice, on this forum you guys brought up the issue again, not us? We are merely indicating what others are saying about it as well, such as the GBC's top spokesman and the Gaudiya Matha's Narayana Maharaja, they both say that it is ok to worship illicit sex as Vishnupada and the ritviks say, this is bogus. thanks pd :shock:
The spiritual master is never ordinary
by Deepak Vohra Posted June 2, 2004
Ananda das ("Only the unattainable guru makes no mistakes," posted May 29) claims he is a "longtime disciple of His Divine Grace" Srila Prabhupda. Yet he dares to "take issue with those who claim Srila Prabhupada to have been perfect, free of error, or unable to fall into darkness." He reiterates this shocking statement by stating that Srila Prabhupada "perpetuated false myths", and emphasising that Srila Prabhupada is just like any ordinary human being.
What faith Ananda das must have in the sastra which clearly states: "One should consider the acarya to be as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In spite of all these instructions, if one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed. His study of the Vedas and his austerities and penances for enlightenment are all useless, like the bathing of an elephant. . . . One may argue by saying that since the spiritual master's relatives and the men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple who considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being? This will be answered in the next verse, but the injunction is that the spiritual master should never be considered an ordinary man." (Bhag. 7.15.26, purport)
"The spiritual master is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore one who is very serious about spiritual advancement must regard the spiritual master in this way. Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities." (Bhag. 7.15.27, purport)
"Similarly, Narada Muni, in his transcendental position, stayed with the young woman without fear of deviation. Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih)." (Bhag. 7.7.14, purport)
"At the present moment it has become fashionable to disobey the unimpeachable directions given by the acaryas and liberated souls of the past. Presently people are so fallen that they cannot distinguish between a liberated soul and a conditioned soul. A conditioned soul is hampered by four defects: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. Consequently we have to take direction from liberated persons." (Bhag. 4.18.5, purport)
Srila Prabhupada states: "In the Gaudiya-sampradaya there is a Vedanta commentary called the Govinda-bhasya, but the sahajiyas consider such commentaries to be untouchable philosophical speculation, and they consider the acaryas to be mixed devotees. Thus they clear their way to hell." (Cc Adi 7.72, purport)
Yet Ananda das has the audacity to claim that "Nor was Srila Prabhupada beyond the sway of darkness." Welcome to hell.
ye are obsessed about ,sex,
Who me? LOL.. :D I don't mention the word!! :D But you did!!! :shock: Nice talk for a brahmachari.
Rupa Goswami's "Nectar Of Insturction" (Sri Upadeshamrta) as well as many similar shastras, states clearly that a guru is one who can "tolerate the urges of the belly and genitals." The guru does not engage in illicit sex. The resaon "illicit sex" is mentioned so much around ISKCON circles is that the many of the GBC's and Gaudiya Matha's "Vishnupada gurus"
... have been engaged not only illicit sex, when Jayatirtha was our "appointed guru" he was NOT ONLY having illicit sex, he was taking LSD and so on. Shastra says guru must be uttama .... free of illicit sex.
At that time (1978-9) I protested Jayatirtha, and I was immediately countered by Sridhara Maharaja, and his then clones like Danavir and Vipramukhya, and they told me that I have to worship Jayatirtha anyway. Vipramukhya was yelling at me about this. And so they helped the "gang of four gurus" in their process of getting me "excommunicated" and kicked out of ISKCON, because of my crime, I do not worship illicit sex, LSD and so on? I still don't mind you!
Apart from that, Jayatirtha was offering drugs like LSD to his shalagram deity of Krishna on the maha plate! So when we say, SHASTRA says we cannot worship illicit sex and drugs, and we cannot offer LSD to the deity and so on, we are "the deviants"? PRABHUPADA TOLD ME PERSONALLY! Do not EVER offer anything impure thing to the deity (like drugs?) this is GREVIOUS offense! Yet these folks do not care about his orders?
Later on, both Danavir and Vipramukhya were "voted in as gurus" -- at the recoronation of their "Vishnupada guru" who was engaged in homosexual affairs, according to the annual GBC reports: at that very recoronation ceremony, they were voted in simultaneously.
I read all of these reports given to the GBC, which Atreya Risi gave me in 1986 about "(illicit) sex with taxi drivers in the holy dham." By the way I have boxes full of these GBC reports, I have them all since 1977. So that is their deviant idea of Vishnupada, he is having illicit sex and he is taking drugs, and yet this is not what shastra says?
Shastra says the guru is "uttama," he is free of these influences, moreover he is attracted to Krishna and not to this mundane world and its sex life, drugs and etc. The priest (ritvik) may fall down into these problems, fine, but he is not an uttama. One also cannot help but notice that some of the GBC's gurus lecture about how women are the whole problem, but some of them are having sex with -- men, as Jayadvaita pointed out? Maybe they should find a nice woman and just get married, as Prabhupada wanted, nice married devotees and not hokey gurus. And in early 1977 that is what he said, this sannyasa is getting to be a farce so all of you -- GET MARRIED (since you are not uttama!). thanks pd
:?
Hare Krsna!
Very nice post, Devotee108 prabhu! You hit on each issue and addressed his misconceptions very throughly not missing a point! Now if he will just read it with an open heart perhaps he will begin to have some understanding.
I have been dealing with this one for so long now that my last nerve has been rubbed raw and I have no more patience left at all. I am feeling like I have been sucked back in time to the Salem Witchhunts!!! :shock:
BTW, you get to be 17 today but I get tomorrow. This old bod is 51 tomorrow and I deserve it! :lol:
Haribol!!!!Over half a century on the planet and still as thick as rock ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
The ritvik conclusion is that we need to worship the pure devotees, aka Prabhupada. Whereas the GBC and Gaudiya Matha idea, as we have all seen, is to forward deviants as pure devotees and "cause havoc" as Srila Prabhupada succinctly summarizes. So that is the first problem, all of the opponents of the ritvik idea thus far have forwarded conditioned souls as pure devotees, and created whacko cults, just as BG Narasingha's cult did in 1936 when they forwarded Vasudeva, who was into "sex and sex" says Prabhupada. thanks ys purajana dasa :Dooh more sex.
Dear "Buttertheif,"
"I do not know you, guys, but this Rukmini, and you Krishnadasa dasa are champions of insult and contempt.. and that is not Vaishnava."
where have I chanpioned insults?
as for Mr. Patel, aka "Govindaram," the only "insult" one could take is that I've totally ignored him.
I do so, in order to avoid the 9th offense against the Holy Name: "To instruct a faithless person about the glories of the Holy Name."
I will not bother going into my reason for this - they're apparent from reading his posts bashing Rtviks, Rukmini, myself, and others.
Let's just say to me he is dead. He doesn't exist.
If this is insult, so be it.
K d I am wondering if you are a selfappointed sanyasi,if not who appointed you,either way it does not matter, because if this is what you call preaching, no wonder you cannot make disciples or help people to become devotees, and how about your lady friend with her site,hmmm with a lobby for the neophytes and one for the devotees, I can now see that when "Devotees like yourselves assume to be superior to others that its time to leave you in your delusions" so I will lock the devotee lobby and push you both into the neophytes lobby ,which is where you two belong.Little Goomba (aka Chichibo, Goomba). ... When Mario stomps a Goomba, it flattens right down to the ground, and makes a little squeaky noise! ...
Yes, oooh more sex? Right, and when one of the mothers whose children were being molested in New Vrindavana complained to Kirtanananda about it, (the GBC's and Danavir's) cool guru replied, "sex is sex."
:(
In sum, the GBC and folks like Danavir not only supported homosexuals as gurus, their "gurus" apparently cannot distinguish that sex with children is not the same as: consenting adults. Their "gurus" say, sex is sex, even when children are involved? What is their standard here? And when we said this K swami is not a guru, Danavir flipped and said we are "offenders." People who know that sex with children is not the same as adults are -- offenders? :shock:
And this is essence same as Danavir and Vipramukhya said when I protested Jayatirtha, who was having sex with a disciple. They said, well so what, we say he has to be worshipped, who are you, dumb ritviks, and then later there was a huge headline in the UK newspapers "Guru's Head Hacked Off." So again, the public knows this is not "guru" while the GBC still wonders what a guru is, or is not? I wrote to Vipramukhya and said, please write the newspapers and tell them Jayatirtha was never a guru, and Vipramukhya said, no, JT was a guru since he and the GBC said he was?
BTW these stories are found in the book "Monkey On A Stick" where millions of people read about these idyoot ideas of guru. Ooooh, sex is sex, and the GBC's former maha-bhogha-what Kirtanananda hero is getting out of jail in about seven days is he not? Some people told me that they are scared of this event, since he still gives lots of people -- the creeps, while the GBC still says, "he was a link in the chain of gurus from God." This is the standard for guru, sex is sex? Yas thinks! And when we ask the GBC to withdraw their annual reports saying Kirtanananda is a guru, they said, no he was a guru, .... he was? thanks pd
:shock:
Notice, as soon as we request a detailed plan of how we can cooperate, there is silence. This also occured when we asked Adridharna to translate the hindi/ bengali for the November 10th tapes, he said "you do it," knowing I do not speak hindi. So I had the (karmi?) editor of the Los Angeles Patrika Bazaar Bengali paper do the translations for me, no devotees would touch it at first. Then, four months later, Adri writes written public complaints, "Puranjana's hinid is wrong since he cannot speak hindi." Of course all of the residents of Vrindavana who later have heard our tape analysis agreed FULLY ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with our translation. Sometimes "the devotees" want us to cooperate with them, and that means, do nothing but protect the bad guys? This is one of thousands of similar stories? We want to work with the devotees, where are you when we need you? Hello? Many devotees have joined us since though, so we go forward with or without our "help"! Thanks ys pd
The truth is, I did not reply because I didn't return - knowing you never ever accept a drop of advice, but turn it all back around on the devotee trying to help you out.
You say you ask for a plan - but you are fully aware that you dont want one. All which needed to be explained had all ready been explained in my last post. Your request for a plan is merely an attempt to rope me in.
Simple plan:
Stop pretending you are not obsessed with bringing in the sex topic at every opportunity you can locate. You are making us look bad! The most important topic is guru qualification. (Yes, I know - guru's who have sex are not qualified, and are not guru. Point made, move on.)
Stop passing the buck on the sex topic too, pointing out it was JAS, the GBC, or anyone else, who said it "first." They're not innocent, but since you harp on it, you are just the flip side of the same coin. Like the kid who hit the other kid, claiming it was the others fault because "he hit me 'back' first." :) Its a cycle that never ends. Instead, the focal point should be kept on Prabhuapda as guru. Considering Vaisnava's are not attracted to muck but inclined to turn the opposite direction, you'll be more successful in your preaching if you can find a way to control yourself and leave it out or limit it a lot. A little nectar wouldn't hurt every now and again either.
Stop talking like an "impersonal" computer, or an "organization." Try responding like a godbrother.
Go back and read my original points, which I know you wont. But stop patting yourself on the back that since no one gives you a plan, and since no one replies to you, therefore we all ran away or can't come up with any good answers. When someone views himself as soundproof as you, no one "bothers" to talk when it goes in one ear and out the other. Our silence doesn't automatically make you right. Thinking that creates illusion.
Stop dragging in any and all other topics, your personal vendetta's, or whatever you can come up with in that busy brain of yours, as if they were topics connected to the discussion at hand. The goal is to give evidence that the only qualified guru we have yet to see is Srila Prabhupada. Stay focused.
I'm not not connected to Adri, and not necessarily in agreement with the IRM. However, they're not on my hate list like they are on yours. If you had some patience, sense controlled senses starting with the mind, there could be a chance of the various ritviks coming full circle. That may happen anyway, but you will not have been pivitol to it in the least.
Too bad you want to turn the majority of ritviks against you - your way or the highway. If only you'd get humble, and real, you could be a great asset. Since you won't, you become a detriment, one WE have to carry. Therefore stop thinking since you were first, you get privleges. At this point, you are a heavy weight for the rest of us.
There's your "plan," something you will chew up and spit back in one form or another, making it my fault again.
Try not to rope me in anymore, requesting furhter advice or a plan, as if you don't know what I'm talking about. Thats simply nonsense. You all ready know what needs to be done. Either do it, or dont - but no more games.
For gosh sakes, we still want you around. Straighten up!
Tulasi
I don't mean to be offensive or anything but from reading these message boards it sounds to me like pada is a bonafide Krishna Conscious hero for standing up to the guru nonesense right when it happened.
I don't mean to be offensive or anything but from reading these message boards it sounds to me like pada is a bonafide Krishna Conscious hero for standing up to the guru nonesense right when it happened.
Where did anyone deny him that? Go back and read my post before last post. Much credit is given to him there for all he has figured out and let us know. HOW he has conveyed it, his anger, repeated use of 'shock' language, and obsession with sex problems are the points made here. To what he found and revealed - all respects. His way of preaching - he doesn't know HOW to convey the message. Fact is, I know personally many who WON'T become ritvik based more on 'pada's' wild ways of explaing it. We don't hear from those who he blows away, therefore its difficult to know how many he has helped see the truth of ritvik, and how many he has fried with his particular method. All thats being asked here is that he retrain himself and use a superior method, instead of denying he has these problems. Anyone can throw a tantrum, even for good reason. Not anyone can get most others to take them seriously. That requires sense control which starts in the mind.
Tulasi
TulasiDevi,
Forgive my ignorance as I am still trying to educate myself completely on the ritivik issue. How many ritivik groups are there and what exactly is the difference between them?
In regards to pada. I have read his website and I personally enjoyed it very much. The Special Offering to Srila Prabhupada and the part about Sulocana das practically moved me to tears.
Hopefully everything gets worked out in the long run. From the people I have talked to on the internet that are against the ritvik perspective they say that if Srila Prabhupada is still able to act as diksa guru then he is still able to appoint people to become diksa gurus. I can sort of understand what they are saying but to me it makes more common sense to leave Srila Prabhupada as diksa guru then there is no chance of phoney gurus and bogus gurus polluting the purity of the Krishna Conscious Movement and destroying its public credibility. They don't take too kindly to this perspective.
I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. Best wishes.
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Not sure really of all the ritvik groups but I know of Prabhupada Sankirtan Society, Hare Krishna Society, Pada, and IRM. There might be more but there are also numerous devotees who follow the ritvik conclusion on their own with no affliation to any of the above.
Prabhupada set up the ritvik system and never did He say it was to end with His passing from our material vision so those who jumped in and self-appointed themselves diksa gurus are not only disobeying their guru but they are also committing a great offense.
ys
Rukmini-Devi dasi
TulasiDevi,
Forgive my ignorance as I am still trying to educate myself completely on the ritivik issue. How many ritivik groups are there and what exactly is the difference between them?
In regards to pada. I have read his website and I personally enjoyed it very much. The Special Offering to Srila Prabhupada and the part about Sulocana das practically moved me to tears.
Hopefully everything gets worked out in the long run. From the people I have talked to on the internet that are against the ritvik perspective they say that if Srila Prabhupada is still able to act as diksa guru then he is still able to appoint people to become diksa gurus. I can sort of understand what they are saying but to me it makes more common sense to leave Srila Prabhupada as diksa guru then there is no chance of phoney gurus and bogus gurus polluting the purity of the Krishna Conscious Movement and destroying its public credibility. They don't take too kindly to this perspective.
I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. Best wishes.
TulasiDevi,
Forgive my ignorance as I am still trying to educate myself completely on the ritivik issue. How many ritivik groups are there and what exactly is the difference between them?
In regards to pada. I have read his website and I personally enjoyed it very much. The Special Offering to Srila Prabhupada and the part about Sulocana das practically moved me to tears.
Hopefully everything gets worked out in the long run. From the people I have talked to on the internet that are against the ritvik perspective they say that if Srila Prabhupada is still able to act as diksa guru then he is still able to appoint people to become diksa gurus. I can sort of understand what they are saying but to me it makes more common sense to leave Srila Prabhupada as diksa guru then there is no chance of phoney gurus and bogus gurus polluting the purity of the Krishna Conscious Movement and destroying its public credibility. They don't take too kindly to this perspective.
I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. Best wishes.
Haribol prabhu,
No, no, you have not offended me in the least! :)
True that there are several different ritvik groups. Like Rukmini, I am not necessarily aligned to any one of them, yet hopeful they all find a way to unite. I think if we all can just find a way to work together, we can put Prabhupada back in the center, and we should leave behind our tifts. They will get worked out anyway, once Prabhupada is returned to where he belongs.
Regarding the point that: "if Srila Prabhupada is still able to act as diksa guru then he is still able to appoint people to become diksa gurus. " I understand when you say that you see their point. I have a few opinions on this.
First and foremost, since Prabhupada is the very one who put the ritvik system into action, we need to understand he did not see anyone qualified then (when we were MORE strict and more ADVANCED, as we have weakened over time, lowered standards, long list here), otherwise he would have suggested someone had any of them shinned.
We need to understand the mere fact that he did like this, ritvik and not even worry about diksa appointment, strongly indicates how fallen we are that it wasn't even at the top of his list to pick anyone other than himself. He was and is the only one qualified diksa thus far. We are so distanced from being advanced (what to speak of qualified as guru), that we can't understand MANY things. Not just some, but many, as our vision is material, our interpretations of his books in our minds is too material, etc. I have often seen varous iskcon authorities and gurus read the exact same purport as myself yet they giive a class that is so extremely different from my understanding, and others, that I find it hard to believe they have a proper understanding themselves. Whether they do it for political reasons or they sincerely interpret it that way ultimately would not matter because what matters is that they see it different from Prabhupada in any light. When its mud to us lol, when too many of us dont agree on its meaning, we dont get to take on disciples.
Regarding Prabhupada being unable to appoint people diska, we should not think this is going to happen thru material vision. It wont even happen to one who HAS material vision, but to a self realized soul who is effulgent. If Prabhupada had seen any, he would have marked them very clearly for us. Since he never mentioned not a one to be on that level, so it may be a very long time until one manfiests. Though it doesn't have to be, but since we like to dig our heals in during kali yuga and can't admit when wrong, so its probably going to take a long time until the unqualified guru system gets demolished. I may not see it in my lifetime.
In any case, when the time arrives, the qualified person will be obviously effulgent, fully deserving, and therefore directly instructed by Prabhuapda. Tho I see the fear and complication here. How do we know this is not just some sahajiya?
For now I will say that they first must meet up to ALL of the qualifications of guru, which not only include extremely controlled senses (NO sex desire, not even subtle), but also that they are an intimate associate of Radharani for example. I have a quote like that, so its pretty clear the post of diksa is no small thing and only for one who is completely pure devotee. There are many qualifications one must achieve to become guru. Devotees need to memorize them so we can factually recognize who is a bona fide guru.
Anyway, even the mere psychics have all sorts of experiences on the various planes, and the 6 Goswamis are said to still live in Vrindavana and sometimes people have experiences. We should not think we can not have experiences or that Prabhuapda can't contact us, only that to be careful this wont be misused or taken cheaply it must work together with shastra. It is important that they are aligned with each other (experience and shastra).
When we look at our track record and see guru after guru fall down, and I have a quote where Prabhupada says there is no such thing as a bad guru (so really, they were never guru)..... anyway with bad track record we must admit that it looks like its going to be a very long time 'til a fully qualified, self effulgent, diksa guru manifests and we should therefore simply be thankful we found Prabhupada. (Yes, I know you are.) At least we have somene! :) We need to hang on to him, and can go back to Home, back to Godhead.
Politics? Bah, humbug. Just attach ourselves as a particle to Prabhupada's lotus feet cuz we KNOW he's going back, and maybe we will get dragged along with him. :) It's this attachment that will save us.
YFS,
Tulasi
Politics? Bah, humbug. Just attach ourselves as a particle to Prabhupada's lotus feet cuz we KNOW he's going back, and maybe we will get dragged along with him. It's this attachment that will save us.
Actually what I meant to say was:
we KNOW he's IS back,
ALWAYS was back,
And always WILL be back or more specificialy - with Krishna.
He was a pure devoee always. There are many stories of his intimate association with Krishna, incredible (transcendental) things he experienced and revealed to us when on earth.
YFS,
Tulasi
Yeah even though I never met him I can tell from reading his books that he was the greatest. He truly lived an extraordinary life of devotion. I can't completely comprehend how he could never lose his determination in preaching despite all the difficulties and I am sure he probably had many people that mocked him etc.
Preface
by
His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada
Founder-Acarya
of the
International Society
for
Krsna Consciousness
In ten short years, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada inundated the world with Krsna Consciousness. In the following excerpt from one of his essays, he smashes the sectarian misconception that the spiritual master is limited to a particular person, form, or institution, and establishes the universal conception of guru.
saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair
uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih
kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya
vande guroh sri caranaravindam
In the revealed scriptures it is declared that the spiritual master should be worshiped like the Supreme Personality of Godhead and this injunction is obeyed by pure devotees of the Lord. The spiritual master is the most confidential servant of the Lord. Thus let us offer our respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of our spiritual master .
Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Math, let me welcome you all because you have so kindly joined us tonight in our congregational offerings of homage to the lotus feet of the world teacher, acaryadeva, who is the founder of this Gaudiya Mission and is the President-acarya of Sri Sri Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha-I mean my eternal divine master, Om Visnupada Paramaharnsa Parivrajakacarya, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja.
Sixty-two years ago, on this auspicious day, the acaryadeva made his appearance by the call of Thakura Bhaktivinoda at Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Dhama at Puri.
Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.
There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.
In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:
tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Tmth.''
Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru,or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.
In the Bhagavatam (11.17.27) it is said:
acaryam mam vijaniyan
navamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyasuyeta
sarva-deva mayoguruh
"One should understand the spiritual master to be as good as I am," said the Blessed Lord. "Nobody should be jealous of the spiritual master or think of him as an ordinary man, because the spiritual master is the sum total of all demigods." That is, the acarya has been identified with God Himself. He has nothing to do with the affairs of this mundane world. He appears before us to reveal the light of the Vedas and to bestow upon us the blessing of full-fledged freedom, after which we should hanker at every step of our life's journey.
The transcendental knowledge of the Vedas was first uttered by God to Brahma, the creator of this particular universe. From Brahma the knowledge descended to Narada, from Narada to Vyasadeva, from Vyasadeva to Madhva, and in this process of disciplic succession the transcendental knowledge was transmitted by one disciple to another till it reached Lord Gauranga, Sri Krsna Caitanya, who posed as the disciple and successor of Sri Isvara Puri. The present acaryadeva is the tenth disciplic representative from Sri Rupa Goswami, the original representative of Lord Caitanya who preached this transcendental tradition in its fullness. The knowledge that we receive from our gurudeva is not different from that imparted by God Himself and the succession of the acaryas in the preceptorial line of Brahma. We adore this auspicious day as Sri Vyasa-puja-tithi because the acarya is the living representative of Vyasadeva, the divine compiler of the Vedas, Puranas, Bhagavad gita, Mahabharata and Srimad-Bhagavatam .
We cannot know anything of the transcendental region by our limited, perverted method of okservation and experiment. But all of us can lend our eager ears for the aural reception of the transcendental sound transmitted from that region to this, through the unadulterated medium of sri gurudeva or Sri Vyasadeva. Therefore, gentlemen, we should surrender ourselves today at the feet of the representative of Sn Vyasadeva for the elimination of all our differences bred by our unsubmissive attitude. It is accordingly said in the Bhagavad-gita (4.34):
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva darsinah
"Just approach the wise and bona fide spiritual master. Surrender unto him first and try to understand him by inquiries and service. Such a wise spiritual master will enlighten you with transcendental knowledge, for he has already known the Aksolute Truth."
To receive transcendental knowledge, we must completely surrender ourselves to the real acarya in a spirit of ardent inquiry and service. Actual performance of service to the Absolute under the guidance of the acarya is the only vehicle by which we can assimilate transcendental knowledge. Today's meeting for offering our humble services and homage to the feet of the acaryadeva will enable us to be favored with the capacity of assimilating the transcendental knowledge so kindly transmitted by him to all persons without distinction.
Gentlemen, although it is imperfectly that we have been enabled, by his grace, to understand the sublime messages of our acaryadeva, we must admit that we have realized definitely that the divine message from his holy lips is the congenial thing for suffering humanity. All of us should hear him patiently. If we listen to the transcendental sound without unnecessary opposition, he will surely have mercy upon us. The acarya's message is to take us back to our original home, back to God. Let me repeat, therefore, that we should hear him patiently, follow him in the measure of our conviction and bow down at his lotus feet for releasing us from our present causeless unwillingness for serving the Absolute and all souls.
Sitting at the feet of the acaryadeva, let us try to understand from this transcendental source of knowledge what we are, what is this universe, what is God, and what is our relationship with Him. The message of Lord Caitanya is the message for the living entities and the message of the living world. Lord Caitanva did not bother himself for the upliftment of this dead world, which is suitably named Martyaloka, the world where everything is destined to die. He appeared before us four hundred and fifty years ago to tell us something of the transcendental universe, where everything is permanent and everything is for the service of the Absolute. But recently Lord Caitanya has keen misrepresented by some unscrupulous persons, and the highest philosophy of the Lord has been misinterpreted to be the cult of the lowest type of society. We are glad to announce tonight that our acaryadeva, with his usual kindness, saved us from this horrible type of degradation, and therefore we bow down at his lotus feet with all humility.
We are happy that we have been relieved of this horrible type of malady by the mercy of His Divine Grace. He is our eye-opener, our eternal father, our eternal preceptor and our eternal guide. Let us therefore bow down at his lotus feet on this auspicious day.
Gentlemen, although we are like ignorant children in the knowledge of Transcendence, still, my gurudeva has kindled a small fire within us to dissipate the invincible darkness of empirical knowledge. We are now so much on the safe side that no amount of philosophical argument by the empiric schools of thought can deviate us an inch from the position of our eternal dependence on the lotus feet of His Divine Grace.
Gentlemen, had he not appeared before us to deliver us from the thralldom of this gross, worldly delusion, surely we should have remained for lives and ages in the darkness of helpless captivity. Had he not appeared before us, we would not have been able to understand the eternal truth of the sublime teaching of Lord Caitanya.
Personally, I have no hope for any direct service of the coming crores of births in the sojourn of my life, but I am confident that some day or other I shall be delivered from this mire of delusion in which I am at present so deeply sunk. Therefore let me with all my earnestness pray at the lotus feet of my divine master to allow me to suffer the lot for which I am destined due to my past misdoings, but to let me have this power of recollection: that I am nothing but a tiny servant of the Almighty Absolute Godhead, realized through the unflinching mercy of my divine master. Let me therefore bow down at his lotus feet with all the humility at my command.
Abhay Charan Das [early name of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada]
For Members, Sri Gaudiya Math
Bombay
-This lecture was originally published in The Harmonist in 1936, on the advent day of His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
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