Could the guru be a human being who makes a mistake? [Archive]

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25-05-04, 10:19 AM

Isn't the guru supposed to be above the 4 defects of the conditioned soul? :roll:

25-05-04, 02:18 PM

Isn't the guru supposed to be above the 4 defects of the conditioned soul? :roll:

I am beginning to wonder, with all these controversy topics you bring up and post, if you all ready have come to your own conclusions and are not really sincerely inquiring. Maybe are even thinking you are 'waking us up,' that we don't know these things, never thought about them, or not in that light, etc., etc., etc. If thats the case, the wake up call is for you. We have thought of them all, probably long before you did, and in in many cases, before ever heard of iskcon. Its not new to us. We live it. Have to deal with it not just in our heads, but in our day to day lives. And do not assume we are all blind followers. Thanks.

Devotee 108

25-05-04, 03:18 PM

Hare Krsna,

Thank you for voicing my thoughts and doubts about these off the wall questions so nicely!

I have tried to give the benefit of the doubt with these questions but each one has just become more and more controversial and some are a bit offensive I might add.

your servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi

Isn't the guru supposed to be above the 4 defects of the conditioned soul? :roll:

I am beginning to wonder, with all these controversy topics you bring up and post, if you all ready have come to your own conclusions and are not really sincerely inquiring. Maybe are even thinking you are 'waking us up,' that we don't know these things, never thought about them, or not in that light, etc., etc., etc. If thats the case, the wake up call is for you. We have thought of them all, probably long before you did, and in in many cases, before ever heard of iskcon. Its not new to us. We live it. Have to deal with it not just in our heads, but in our day to day lives. And do not assume we are all blind followers. Thanks.

Devotee 108

25-05-04, 04:20 PM

Haribol Rukmini prabhu,

Yes, I too was also giving the benefit of the doubt that this was just a very inquistive person, which I always encourage. But after a while, once seeing post after post of topics that, for some might create fights, I began to suspect this was being done with intent. I felt like a bit of a fool since I fell for it and replied. Tho I only felt that way a bit, not real big, because it is good to show we are not blind followers and DO have knowledge, not only shastric but also what is going on politically in iskcon, or should I say miskon? ha Anyway, I just wanted to bring attention to what this poster 'might' be doing. Actually, I am glad I responded to a few, and if he has any sincere inquiries, I will again be happy to reply. But no more mind games. :)

Your Servant,
Devotee 108

07-06-04, 06:41 PM

On hearing the word guru, we tend to envision a caricaturelike image: a bizarre-looking old fellow with a long, stringy beard and flowing robes, meditating on distant, esoteric truths. Or we think of a cosmic con man cashing in on young seekers' spiritual gullibility. But what really is a guru? What does he know that we don't? How does he enlighten us? In a talk given in England in 1973, Srila Prabhupada provides some enlightening answers.

om ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana-salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah

"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my guru, my spiritual master, opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."

The word ajnana means "ignorance" or "darkness." If all the lights in this room immediately went out, we would not be able to tell where we or others are sitting. Everything would become confused. Similarly, we are all in darkness in this material world, which is a world of tamas. Tamas or timira means "darkness." This material world is dark, and therefore it needs sunlight or moonlight for illumination. However, there is another world, a spiritual world, that is beyond this darkness. That world is described by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita (15.6):

na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama

"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."

The guru's business is to bring his disciples from darkness to light. At present everyone is suffering due to ignorance, just as one contracts a disease out of ignorance. If one does not know hygienic principles, he will not know what will contaminate him. Therefore due to ignorance there is infection, and we suffer from disease. A criminal may say, "I did not know the law," but he will not be excused if he commits a crime. Ignorance is no excuse. Similarly, a child, not knowing that fire will burn, will touch the fire. The fire does not think, "This is a child, and he does not know I will burn." No, there is no excuse. Just as there are state laws, there are also stringent laws of nature, and these laws will act despite our ignorance of them. If we do something wrong out of ignorance, we must suffer. This is the law. Whether the law is a state law or a law of nature, we risk suffering if we break it.

The guru's business is to see that no human being suffers in this material world. No one can claim that he is not suffering. That is not possible. In this material world, there are three kinds of suffering: adhyatmika, adhibhautika, and adhidaivika. These are miseries arising from the material body and mind, from other living entities, and from the forces of nature. We may suffer mental anguish, or we may suffer from other living entities -- from ants or mosquitos or flies -- or we may suffer due to some superior power. There may be no rain, or there may be flood. There may be excessive heat or excessive cold. So many types of suffering are imposed by nature. Thus there are three types of miseries within the material world, and everyone is suffering from one, two, or three of them. No one can say that he is completely free from suffering.

We may then ask why the living entity is suffering. The answer is: out of ignorance. He does not think, "I am committing mistakes and am leading a sinful life; that is why I am suffering." Therefore the guru's first business is to rescue his disciple from this ignorance. We send our children to school to save them from suffering. If our children do not receive an education, we fear that they will suffer in the future. The guru sees that suffering is due to ignorance, which is compared to darkness. How can one in darkness be saved? By light. The guru takes the torchlight of knowledge and presents it before the living entity enveloped in darkness. That knowledge relieves him from the sufferings of the darkness of ignorance.

One may ask whether the guru is absolutely necessary. The Vedas inform us that he is:

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
(Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) The Vedas enjoin us to seek out a guru; actually, they say to seek out the guru, not just a guru. The guru is one because he comes in disciplic succession. What Vyasadeva and Krishna taught five thousand years ago is also being taught now. There is no difference between the two instructions. Although hundreds and thousands of acaryas have come and gone, the message is one. The real guru cannot be two, for the real guru does not speak differently from his predecessors. Some spiritual teachers say, "In my opinion you should do this," but this is not a guru. Such so-called gurus are simply rascals. The genuine guru has only one opinion, and that is the opinion expressed by Krishna, Vyasadeva, Narada, Arjuna, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Gosvamis. Five thousand years ago Lord Sri Krishna spoke the Bhagavad-gita, and Vyasadeva recorded it. Srila Vyasadeva did not say, "This is my opinion." Rather, he wrote, sri-bhagavan uvaca, that is, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead says." Whatever Vyasadeva wrote was originally spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Srila Vyasadeva did not give his own opinion.

Consequently, Srila Vyasadeva is a guru. He does not misinterpret the words of Krishna, but transmits them exactly as they were spoken. If we send a telegram, the person who delivers the telegram does not have to correct it, edit it, or add to it. He simply presents it. That is the guru's business. The guru may be this person or that, but the message is the same; therefore it is said that guru is one.

In the disciplic succession we simply find repetition of the same subject. In the Bhagavad-gita (9.34) Sri Krishna says:

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam
atmanam mat-parayanah

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances, and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

These very instructions were reiterated by all the acaryas, such as Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The six Gosvamis also transmitted the same message, and we are simply following in their footsteps. There is no difference. We do not interpret the words of Krishna by saying, "In my opinion, the Battlefield of Kuruksetra represents the human body." Such interpretations are set forth by rascals. In the world there are many rascal gurus who give their own opinion, but we can challenge any rascal. A rascal guru may say, "I am God," or, "We are all God." That is all right, but we should find out from the dictionary what the meaning of God is. Generally, a dictionary will tell us that the word God indicates the Supreme Being. Thus we may ask such a guru, "Are you the Supreme Being?" If he cannot understand this, then we should give the meaning of supreme. Any dictionary will inform us that supreme means "the greatest authority." We may then ask, "Are you the greatest authority?" Such a rascal guru, even though proclaiming himself to be God, cannot answer such a question. God is the Supreme Being and the highest authority. No one is equal to Him or greater than Him. Yet there are many guru-gods, many rascals who claim to be the Supreme. Such rascals cannot help us escape the darkness of material existence. They cannot illumine our darkness with the torchlight of spiritual knowledge.

The bona fide guru will simply present what the supreme guru, God, says in bona fide scripture. A guru cannot change the message of the disciplic succession.

We must understand that we cannot carry out research to find the Absolute Truth. Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself said, "My Guru Maharaja, My spiritual master, considered Me a great fool." He who remains a great fool before his guru is a guru himself. However, if one says, "I am so advanced that I can speak better than my guru," he is simply a rascal. In the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) Sri Krishna says:

evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha mahata
yogo nastah parantapa

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."

Taking on a guru is not simply a fashion. One who is serious about understanding spiritual life requires a guru. A guru is a question of necessity, for one must be very serious to understand spiritual life, God, proper action, and one's relationship with God. When we are very serious about understanding these subjects, we need a guru. We shouldn't go to a guru simply because a guru may be fashionable at the moment. Surrender must be there, for without surrender we cannot learn anything. If we go to a guru simply to challenge him, we will learn nothing. We must accept the guru just as Arjuna accepted his guru, Sri Krishna Himself:

karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah
prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah
yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me
sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam

"Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." (Bhagavad-gita 2.7)

This is the process for accepting a guru. The guru is Krishna's representative, the former acaryas' representative. Krishna says that all acaryas are His representatives; therefore the guru should be offered the same respect one would offer to God. As Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says in his prayers to the spiritual master, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah: " By the mercy of the spiritual master, one receives the benediction of Krishna." Thus, if we surrender to the bona fide guru, we surrender to God. God accepts our surrender to the guru.

In the Bhagavad-gita (18.66) Krishna instructs:

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayis yami ma sucah

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."

Someone may argue, "Where is Krishna? I shall surrender to Him." But no, the process is that we first surrender to Krishna's representative; then we surrender to Krishna. Therefore it is said, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih: the guru is as good as God. When we offer respects to the guru, we are offering respects to God. Because we are trying to be God conscious, it is required that we learn how to offer respects to God through God's representative. In all the sastras the guru is described to be as good as God, but the guru never says, "I am God." The disciple's duty is to offer respect to the guru just as he offers respect to God, but the guru never thinks, "My disciples are offering me the same respect they offer to God; therefore I have become God." As soon as he thinks like this, he becomes a dog instead of God. Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti says, kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servitor of God, the guru is offered the same respect that we offer God. God is always God, guru is always guru. As a matter of etiquette, God is the worshipable God, and guru is the worshiper God (sevaka-bhagavan). Therefore the guru is addressed as prabhupada. The word prabhu means "lord," and pada means "position." Thus prabhupada means "he who has taken the position of the Lord." This is the same as saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih.

Only if we are very serious about understanding the science of God is a guru required. We should not try to keep a guru as a matter of fashion. One who has accepted a guru speaks intelligently. He never speaks nonsense. That is the sign of having accepted a bona fide guru. We should certainly offer all respect to the spiritual master, but we should also remember how to carry out his orders. In the Bhagavad-gita (4.34) Sri Krishna Himself tells us the method of seeking out and approaching the guru:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya-
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness.

Everyone is born a rascal and a fool. If we are born learned, why do we need to go to school? If we do not cultivate knowledge, we are no better than animals. An animal may say that there is no need of books and that he has become a guru, but how can anyone obtain knowledge without the study of authoritative books on science and philosophy? Rascal gurus try to avoid these things. We must understand that we are all born rascals and fools and that we have to be enlightened. We have to receive knowledge to make our lives perfect. If we do not perfect our lives, we are defeated. What is this defeat? The struggle for existence. We are trying to obtain a better life, to attain a superior position, and for this we are struggling very hard. But we do not know what a superior position actually is.

Whatever position we have in this material world must be given up. We may have a good position or a bad position; in any case, we cannot remain here. We may earn millions of dollars and think, "Now I am in a good position," but a little dysentery or cholera will finish our position. If the bank fails, our position is gone. So actually there is no good position in this material world. It is a farce. Those who try to attain a better position in the material world are ultimately defeated, because there is no better position. The Bhagavad-gita (14.26) says what the better position is:

mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kaipate

"One who engages in the spiritual activities of unalloyed devotional service at once transcends the modes of material nature and is elevated to the spiritual platform."

Is there any science that gives us the knowledge by which we may become immortal? Yes, we may become immortal, but not in the material sense. We cannot receive this knowledge in so-called universities. However, there is knowledge contained in the Vedic scriptures by which we may become immortal. That immortality is our better position. No more birth, no more death, no more old age, no more disease. Thus the guru takes on a very great responsibility. He must guide his disciple and enable him to become an eligible candidate for the perfect position -- immortality. The guru must be competent to lead his disciple back home, back to Godhead. http://www.iskcon.org/main/twohk/philo/roots/guru.htm

07-06-04, 07:34 PM

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

Yes, very nice quote. The diksha guru must be fixed in spirit and fully detached from matter, and this is called "brahma-nistham," or brahma-jnan etc. Srila Prabhupada also says, he must also be a resident of Krishna loka. This is the crux of the arument over diksha gurus, shastra says: they must be brahma-nistha, residents of Krishna loka and so on. A person still under the clutches of maya is not brahma nistham, fixed in spiritual brahma-jnan. So he cannot be a guru, thus he is, at best, a ritvik or priest.

Yet in 1980 the GBC wrote a paper, "The Mahajanas Have Difficulties" wherein they attempted to discredit the pure devotees and even the mahajanas by saying they are experiencing the deluding factor of the material energy, the same as conditioned souls (the maya-nistham)? No, the mahajanas are brahma-nistham, they are fixed in Krishna consciousness. They are not influenced and deluded by material nature, what to speak of being fully overcome and deluded by material nature as the 1980 paper theorizes. So that is the meaning of brahma-nistham, they are fixed, they are not wavering and overwhelmed etc.

Good citations prabhu! This is how we defeated the whole assembled GBC in 1978, we cited exactly this quote, the eleven are -- not -- brahma-nistham? So they are not qualified as diksha gurus, and most now agree with us: they are not fixed on spirit, but for sure we have seen evidence members of their group are fixed on material things, thanks ys pd

07-06-04, 08:51 PM

07-06-04, 09:16 PM

Dear PilgrimVaishnava,

I must appreciate the definition of "Guru" you have given here.. I have never read this kind of an explanation ever before. I always though that the "Gurus" are just the cheats. Becoming "guru" is a profession these days. The so called "gurus" are just adding up their material pleasures to make their life easier and their followers are assisting them because it is a "fashion" these days. Today, I mostly see that those people who perform bad practices in business/daily life are very close to "gurus" to show the world that they are good people

"gurus" these days are giving "diksha" without even knowing to whom they are giving.. it is something like a "mass distribution" just to make themselves a brand.. to make them satisfy their ego "I have these many devotees"... This definitely takes me away from the "Gurus" and makes me take my trust off them... since they all live in the material world.

I take ONLY "Krishna" as my guru. Thank you so much for your response ilovekrishna, but let me make it clear,these are not my words, these are the words of a Pure Devotee A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, it is so suprising how we have allowed the predender gurus to get away with what they have been doing within the movement,and accepting what they taught,but no more,the real teachings are in our own hands, so we must make the effort to read His writings,His orignal books that is, and then we will have no need of the speculators,avoid them like the plague and hold fast to the teachings of His Divine Grace.

mathuranath das

26-03-06, 07:34 PM

Dear Devotees,
This is a very important topic worthy of discussion and its a blessing to have a forum like this to share the teachings of our Sri Guru Varga openly.
Please no one take offence at my postings. I only offer them in a mood of sharing, not in the spirit of controversy. My dandavat pranams to all.

The Chaitanya Charitamrta as well as upekshamrta of Rupa Goswami (Nectar of Instruction) give us information of the three basic levels of devotional adhikar. Kanishta (neophyte) Madyama (intermediate) and Uttama (realized). As well as the various types of "Guru". Lord Chaitanya advises - "yare deke tara kaha krsna upadesh..."become guru and deliver the land" In pusuit of that order the young as well as experienced of Isckon and related Gaudiya Vaisnava missions do thier best to spead Krsna Consciousness. A Kanishta adikari may act as a "vartmapradarshik guru" by introducing the innocent public to thier first KC experience. That neophyte may do his best despite his own personal lack of sense control and Krsna may act through him or her, despite apparent disqualifications. Krsna sees his enthusiasm and faith and may utilize him in ways the young devotee is himself unaware. In the words of Lord Shiva-"vyaso veti no veti va" The revelation may exceed the capacity of the agent. And this may be true on any level, and for any devotee, at any time. Its also a mistake to confuse mundane morality with transcendental qualification. We could say that parasara Muni had illicit sex with the fishermans daughter satyavati, yet the result was the birth of Vyas. "For those who love the Lord, everything comes to good". My Guru Maharaj described the situation in this way. A devotee has two aspects, there is the man, and there is the inspired side of the vaishnava -that higher current that flows down through the devotee to inspire others. Some Guru's have both feet here in the material world and are pointing towards the transcendental reality. Another Guru may have one foot here and one foot there. The best type are descended from that plane..as in the case of Srila Prabhupad, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Saraswati Thakur, Bhaktivinode Thakur et all.

An Acharya is one who has a very high personal qualification as well as practical and theoretical knowledge of the scriptures. Its no wonder that upon the dissappearance of Srila Prabhupad that His sanyasa disciples and appointed Gurus of Isckon should encounter difficulty. Without the shelter and enrichment of the Swarup Shakti manifest in the personal presence of Sri Guru we are very vulnerable indeed.

The definitive understanding of Guru shakti-tattva can be found very elaborately explained in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's monumental book "Sri Guru and His Grace". I would humbly beg all serious devotees to read this important book. Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, "He is shastra nipune...scriptural genius" and Srila Prabhupad Himself declared of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. " I myself consider Him (Sridhar Maharaj) Shiksa Guru, what to speak of the benefit others can gain from him." Check out http:www.scsmath.com

varadaraja sharma

08-04-06, 11:26 AM

Radhe Krishna,

Mathuranathaji, Radhe Krishna, I was hesitant to touch upon this topic since prima facie it sounded offensive.

A guru - per se - definition - a guru - is not supposed to commit mistakes and would never commit.

If a person commits mistake the mistake would have been committed by a person and - sorry - he can't be guru.

Guru is exalted personality. He should be well versed in scriptures. above all he should have "Anubhuthi". Only a realised soul can be able to guide other people. Realisation also makes a person exposed to scriptures. Even if he did not undergo proper education of scriptures, it is believed and there are examples - realised souls were better knowledeable in scriptures - than those who have studied them systematically.

Radhe Krishna.

judas

08-04-06, 10:12 PM