This can't be for real....

just when you think you have seen it all....
This was actually put into Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa Puja book last year.

Devamrta Swami, one of the isCON "gurus" wrote it.
=====


During your physical presence your books were our be-all and end-all. Now, have we entered, consciously or unconsciously, a new era of ISKCON known as “PPB”—that is, ‘post–Prabhupada’s books’?


More than a few seasoned devotees and supportive academics opine that indeed it’s time to move on. Maybe, while maintaining our eternal gratitude to you, our founder-acarya, it’s now necessary to evaluate what you have left us and distill whatever part of that legacy should accompany us into the future of a different world and a different ISKCON. Therefore, amidst the perennial onslaught of time and change in the material world, I clutch at your feet and seek your clarification, since you are the most expert strategist in Lord Caitanya’s contemporary army. And because you cling most tightly to the lotus feet of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, you are the most divinely pragmatic.


1. What are your expressed desires for your books in relation to the future of ISKCON?


2. How do you see your books in relation to both training future ISKCON devotees and enlightening the present nondevotee population?


3. Amidst the burgeoning potpourri of Gaudiya Vaisnavism outside of India, do you still assert that your books are sufficient for bringing us to the zenith of bhakti?


4. What should we do and feel about purports that seem to clash with current scientific, gender, sociological, and political notions and niceties?



5. How are we to commingle the previous acaryas’ literatures with your books, especially since you certainly mention other sastras in your purports?


6. Can your books withstand time? That is, are the purports and language dated—if not now, then in the future?


7. Is emphasis on distributing your books, by whatever method, outmoded? Isn’t ISKCON without emphasis on mass distribution a breath of fresh air for us?

8. Without a doubt you urged your disciples to write books. What is the relation between our books and yours, within your ISKCON society and beyond?



9. Should our senior devotees take the lead in demonstrating lifelong dependence on your books for their spiritual sustenance and delight? Is there a danger that by doing so they could inhibit their spiritual maturity?



I can’t stand on the shore of the ocean of milk, yet for the sake of ISKCON’s future and my own well-being I beg you for clarification: Is it pie-in-the-sky and reactionary to pine for a time when we will all be on the same page (into the same books) again, ‘like the good old days’?



Would we gain anything significant and lasting if ISKCON’s leaders, in both word and example, rallied to exalt your books as the main basis of our cultural unity? And if you deem such voluntary austerity a laudable goal, then how can we avoid setting off a wave of insensitivity and brashness to attain it (like the good old days)?



Maybe there is no one answer to these questions. Perhaps, for your practical pleasure, we should accept the reality of a highly pluralistic ISKCON society, and learn to live with it. If that is your desire, I am ready to accept it."

[cherry]

yeah i remember this, what can you say, it is too unbelievable for words ... and coming from someone who is supposed to be a guru ... truely amazing.

[Janardana_123]

PAMHO
AGTSP

Dear prabhus

This entry is a prime example of usurpation of prabhupadas
power, and disobeadeance of direct orders.

I have read what Prabhupada has said about his Books.
Its all there, in the books. Prabhupada is Our Guru.
Some have been appointed to act as his representatives,
but it seems so many are not happy doing this, they
would rather let their egos allow them to pretend to
be Guru....I'm starting to think the sickest people
aspire to be leaders, swamis, and temple managers....
I have met some real Doosies......They actually chase people
away from temples, and charge for prasadam....

I'd rather be the Janitor!@!

I am so happy to know about Krsna.

Please forgive me if My truth offends you
you should be like a tree, offenceless.

Get the wax outta your ears

Boomer
Bhakta John

[vespertine212]

I know these are very difficult questions to face, but I think they are very realistic and important. If you hadn't noticed, ISKCON has lost its monopoly on Gaudiya Vaisnavism. And if ritvik is your flavor, you may have noticed that that philosophy hasn't been especially popular or capable of attracting very sizeable numbers of people to become devotees.

Now maybe everyone is going to jump on me and say "if ISKCON became ritvik things would be great!" Personally, I think that's an illusion. I think turning ISKCON ritivk would drive out most of it's already dwindling membership.

I hate to ask for a discussion from people who seem so clearly against what you've brought up here, but what is it, exactly, that devotees dislike or disagree with about Maharaja's Vyasa Puja questions? Instead of just writing the Maharaja off as a disobeadeant disciple, do we have any constructive, intelligent comments about this?

[cherry]

what are you talking about, this is nothing to do with ritvik, this is about prabhupada's books ...
maharaja says ..
'During your physical presence your books were our be-all and end-all. Now, have we entered, consciously or unconsciously, a new era of ISKCON known as “PPB”—that is, ‘post–Prabhupada’s books’?'

what is this statement mean, are we to 'move on' from prabhupada's books?

maharaja says ...
' More than a few seasoned devotees and supportive academics opine that indeed it’s time to move on. Maybe, while maintaining our eternal gratitude to you, our founder-acarya, it’s now necessary to evaluate what you have left us and distill whatever part of that legacy should accompany us into the future of a different world and a different ISKCON.'

well now he says straight out, we should 'move on' .. it seems that 'more than a few seasoned devotees and supportive academics' think this, lol, 'supportive academics'!! .. i.e. non-devotees ...

maharaja says ..
'1. What are your expressed desires for your books in relation to the future of ISKCON?'

good lord, how can he ask that question, prabhupada made it clear enough

maharaja says ..
3. Amidst the burgeoning potpourri of Gaudiya Vaisnavism outside of India, do you still assert that your books are sufficient for bringing us to the zenith of bhakti?'

he has lost faith in prabhupada's book it seems ..

maharaja says ..
'4. What should we do and feel about purports that seem to clash with current scientific, gender, sociological, and political notions and niceties?'

wow, does he put faith in what the scientists says?! .. who cares what the scientists think, prabhupada never did, they are useless

maharaja says ..
'6. Can your books withstand time? That is, are the purports and language dated—if not now, then in the future?'

another statement, again questioning prabhupada's books

maharaja says ..
7. Is emphasis on distributing your books, by whatever method, outmoded? Isn’t ISKCON without emphasis on mass distribution a breath of fresh air for us?'

wow, he doesn't want to distribute prabhupada's books! .. not only that, he calls it a 'breath of fresh air'!!

maharaja says ..
'9. Should our senior devotees take the lead in demonstrating lifelong dependence on your books for their spiritual sustenance and delight? Is there a danger that by doing so they could inhibit their spiritual maturity?'

good lord, i don't know how to comment on that ... 'is there a danger that by doing so (depending on prabhupada's books) they could inhibit their spiritual maturity?'!!!!

all these statements have nothing to do with iskcon, nothing to do with ritvik, it has everything to do with prabhupada's books, and it has everything to do with questioning if we should 'drop them' .. 'move on' etc etc

Hare Krishna Cherry,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

To get a better idea of Vespertine's "opinion" of Srila Prabhupada; please go to his Siddha Pranali thread:

http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=167

and my Book Changes Thread:

http://www.krishnatalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=109

your fallen servant,
Rukmini-Devi dasi

[vespertine212]

It seems as though the issue here is whether we are first followers of Srila Prabhupada, no matter what he said or taught, or whether we are first Gaudiya Vaisnavas, inheritors of the tradition of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, brought to us by His representative Srila Prabhupada.

It's a fact that times have changed. People like Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, other Gaudiya Math preachers and even the more pure babajis at Radha Kunda have changed the game for good. Many high-quality Krishna conscious publications have come from these groups. Many devotees, who 25 years ago may have been persuaded to surrender to ISKCON, have invested their faith elsewhere. You can hide your head in the sand of so many Prabhupada quotes and pretend it isn't so, or that it shouldn't be so, but it's just a fact. I think this is a real issue that needs to be confronted and considered by devotees who hope to take the spreading of Krishna consciousness further. I think Maharaja is just asking honest questions in that regard.

When one of Prabhupada's Godbrothers asked him about the future of his movement, fearing that the immaturity of Prabhupada's disciples would spoil his work, Prabhupada answered "What can I do? Everything is Krishna's will."

The essence of Srila Prabhupada's mission, so far as I can understand, is to bring the religion of Caitanya Mahaprabhu to as many people as possible all over the world. Is deifying Prabhupada's every word and every book to the extent we have the best way to do that?

Prabhupada's books are glorious. They have made a revolution. They are also the work of a person who produced them incredibly quickly by dictating them into a voice recorder and publishing them without very careful editing. Thats something unprecedented for a scholar to do. The result, as powerful as it is, is not exactly impecable scholarship. Prabhupada was obviously on a very special mission. So now that others are creating very fine books of Krishna consciousness, both for the community of devotees as well as for scholars, how are supposed to deal with that?

If Prabhupada's books are all you'll ever want and need, great. But you may want to be careful of insisting that anyone without your view is somehow insincere or unloyal to Prabhupada.

[cherry]

Rukmini-Devi dasi, Hare Krsna, great soul, please accept my fallen obeisances, hope all is fine and well with you :)

vespertine212, Hare Krsna, all glories unto you :)
ok, i will reply to what you said ...
if certain devotees find Prabhupada's books lacking in something, then they can seek other books, i wish them all the best. If Prabhupada's books cannot deliver them from the cluthes of maya, then by all means, seek the guidance of other books. If other books speak and teach
of higher things required for deliverance, for love of God, then so be it, those souls then need to look elsewhere.

personally speaking, Prabhupada's books will be sufficent for me, i am too fallen to consider
myself advanced enough to progress to other more higher books. Besides, i do feel that all one
needs is Prabhupada's books, if, somehow, they lack anything, i am sure Krsna will provide.
was there not a devotee who could not read, but just looked at the picture of Krsna driving
the chariot with Arjuna, with tears in his eyes? And did not this devotee attain the highest
perfection, love of God? Did not Krsna supply what was required to His dear devotee?

now, you said and i quote ..
"If Prabhupada's books are all you'll ever want and need, great. But you may want to be careful of insisting that anyone without your view is somehow insincere or unloyal to Prabhupada."

i never insisted that anyone without my view is wrong, or insincere, ok. It was the way that the maharaja worded all his doubts about Prabhupada's books.

If i am 'hiding my head in the sand' then so be it, but with my head in the sand, i won't get it chopped off, which is a danger for those who find fault in the writings of the pure devotee.
below is from Caitanya Bhagavata, read it carefully, it is nectar.

Sri Caitanya Bhagavata - Adi Lila - Chapter 11

Lord Caitanya visited Isvara Puri every evening after teaching His students. Isvara Puri was
always glad to see Him. Although he did not know that Nimai was the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, his love and affection for Him flowed unrestrained.
He spoke affectionately to the Lord "I know You are a great scholar. I have written a book
about Lord Krsna. I want You to go through it and find the mistakes, this will please me
very much."
"These are descriptions of Lord Krsna by a pure devotee" replied Nimai. "If anyone finds
any mistake, then he is a sinful offender. The pure devotee never writes anything from his
imagination, devoid of a scriptural basis. These writings are bona fide and always pleasing
to Lord Krsna. When offering obeisances in the temple an ignorant person might make a
grammatical mistake in addressing Lord Krsna while a learned scholar would address Him
using proper grammer. But the Supreme Lord Krsna accepts both their obeisances. The Supreme
Lord is not impressed by mere learning, but he is supplicated by the inner mood of surrender of the
living entities. Whoever looks for faults in your writings is actually at fault himself
because Krsna is fully satisfied by the writing of this pure devotee. Whatever you have
written is an expression of your love for Krsna. Who has the audacity to find some discrepancy
in it?"
Isvaracandra Puri felt ecstasy surge through his entire body with the explanation of Nimai Pandita.

[vespertine212]

Wait, first you say that Prabhupada's books are enough and then you quote Caitanya Bhagavat?

Srila Prabhupada did not publish Caitanya Bhagavat! :D

[cherry]

is that all you have to say lol
i don't know if i can bother to comment on that lol, i probably will though, but i don't know, let me think about it :)
ok, i thought about it for a minute :)
yes, all you need is Prabhupada's books, i still maintain that. Did i say there was anything wrong with reading other books?
this thread here is about a certain maharaja, who with his 'homage' to Prabhupada, unbelievably, just seemed to question and doubt Prabhupada's books.
Prabhupada did not have time to translate every book he wanted to translate, Caitanya Bhagavata would of been one of those, no doubt, given time.
anyway, if you think that the certain maharaja's words about Prabhupada's books is ok, fair enough, we can all decide for ourselves.
it is interesting seeing what people think.
oh oh, i forgot, main point, main point!!!
i am not looking at Caitanya Bhagavata because i am trying to find something Prabhupada did not say
he he :)

[vespertine212]

Ok, wait, so if Prabhupada had lived longer he would given something more, such as a translation of Caitanya Bhagavat?

Or, he gave everything and there is no need to read anything else?

It's a little awkward if you want if both ways.

If he gave everything, why would he need to give more?

Maharaja is asking very reasonable questions that we now confront - what is the status of Prabhupada and his books now that Westerners have encountered more of the tradition of Gaudiya Vaisnavism? Is it a bit dogmatic and close minded of us to insist that Prabhupada is the only way, truth and light to attain devotion to Krishna, and anyone that deviates from that type of chastity is a heathen and an offender? Or is that really the kind of loyalty and chastity Prabhupada wants from us?

These are hard questions, but important ones. My humble opinion is that Maharaja is wise to ask such questions, and that he is being a thoughtful and responsible leader in doing so. If you prefer to avoid such questions because they challenge your faith or because you consider them offensive, that is your right. But do you really have a good reason to slight Maharaja for asking these things?

I think Krishna will reveal all the answers in time.

[cherry]

Ok, wait, so if Prabhupada had lived longer he would given something more, such as a translation of Caitanya Bhagavat?

Or, he gave everything and there is no need to read anything else?

It's a little awkward if you want if both ways.

If he gave everything, why would he need to give more?

Maharaja is asking very reasonable questions that we now confront - what is the status of Prabhupada and his books now that Westerners have encountered more of the tradition of Gaudiya Vaisnavism? Is it a bit dogmatic and close minded of us to insist that Prabhupada is the only way, truth and light to attain devotion to Krishna, and anyone that deviates from that type of chastity is a heathen and an offender? Or is that really the kind of loyalty and chastity Prabhupada wants from us?

These are hard questions, but important ones. My humble opinion is that Maharaja is wise to ask such questions, and that he is being a thoughtful and responsible leader in doing so. If you prefer to avoid such questions because they challenge your faith or because you consider them offensive, that is your right. But do you really have a good reason to slight Maharaja for asking these things?

I think Krishna will reveal all the answers in time.


ok, Hare Krsna vespertine212

we have to be clear on the 'give us more' part.
when i said, above, 'give us more' .. i meant 'more books' not 'more different info he hasn't given'
so i am not trying to 'have it both ways' .. so it is not awkward.
my point is, what Prabhupada has given, is enough to attain perfection.

i don't remember saying it was bad to read other books, why would i say that, i have quoted from CB, and i have other books myself, 'Caitanya Mangala' 'Bhakti-ratnakara' etc etc etc etc
the point is, the certain maharaja was questioning if Prabhupada's books WERE ENOUGH (for us to attain perfection).
Prabhupada has said they are enough for us.

who here doubts, that the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Caitanya Caritamrta and Bhagavata Gita, alone, are not enough to attain perfection.
only a person, lacking in faith, faith in Krsna, could doubt these books are not enough.
is not the Srimad Bhagavatam an incarnation of Krsna?
is not the Bhagavada Gita the 'song of God'?
and how do we describe the glories of the Caitanya Caritamrta?

i think you have some ideas about me, for some reason, you seem to think i am some type of iskcon clone, saying you should only read Prabhuapa's books.
i am not saying that, by all means, read other books, they are nectar, but at the same time, i am saying, that Prabhupada's books are sufficient in themselves.
(anyway, doesn't the bbt print other translations of books iskcon devotees are translating etc etc)
anyway, this conversation is interesting, i am enjoying it, thank you for talking to me about Krsna, because at the moment, i heavily need this.

[vespertine212]

Ok, I'm comfortable with Prabhupada's books being enough. And I'm convinced that especially the Caitanya Caritamrta reveals all of the highest ideals of the line of Rupa and Raghunatha.

I'm also happy to hear other elluciate on those ideals further. I think Maharaja is just saying that we may have positive things to learn from others to helps us understand more deeply and more fully the highest class of knowledge already given to us by Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada's books are perfect, and the tradition he brought us may help us understand them more deeply.

I don't think Maharaja's questions display a lack of faith. I think they display an attempt to follow Prabhupada progressively, thoughtfully and dynamically; not just in a static, close-minded box.

Knowledge of Krishna and Krishna consciousness is unlimited. God may reveal Himself in an infinite number of ways. If we are progressive in our Krishna consciousness we may realize this truth.

Oh yes, and it is so sad that Devamrta's ultra chic Fransciscan Robe idea did not spread all thru iskCON and become the uniform du yuga!

Prabhupada adamantly stated "NO CHANGES." What is it you do not understand about that very simple two word order?

[vespertine212]

Can you show me a quote where Prabhupada orders "no change?" I'd like to see a context. I believe you that there are such quotes, I just would like to see them again here for reference.

Thank you!

Can you show me a quote where Prabhupada orders "no change?" I'd like to see a context. I believe you that there are such quotes, I just would like to see them again here for reference.

Thank you!


You say you would like to see them "again" so you already know he said this.

Go here for much more on this topic:

http://www.adi-vani.org/articles.php?articleId=27

I don't normally ask this question but I am very curious - Who do you follow? Who is your guru?

Hare Krishna. :D

[vespertine212]

The link you've posted was not a direct quote from Srila Prabhupada. Can you provide any of those?

Also, what we're discussing here is not whether or not BBT devotees should have edited Srila Prabhupada's books. I think that's a seperate discussion. What we're talking about here is the position of Srila Prabhupada's books for the future of ISKCON, considering the wealth of Krishna conscious information now being offered by other sources.

If you want to find a quote from Srila Prabhupada that is going to say "don't ever change anything about ISKCON" that seems kind of tough. I mean, obviously him leaving changed everything. I'm just not sure what such an "order" would mean, and that's why I;m interested in seeing quotes, if you can provide them.

If you must know about me personally, I'm a member of ISKCON. I am not initiated. I have been part of this society for many, many years and participate in ISKCON programs regularly.

[cherry]

look at this page here, it has Prabhupada talking on book changes, it is very interesting, to say the least
http://krishna.org/ISKCON/BookChanges/authority.html

something else to take a look at

http://krishna.org/ISKCON/BookChanges/OpenLetterBBT.html

[vespertine212]

Are we talking about book changes or the relevance of Srila Prabhupada's books?

The original post, quoting an ISKCON sannyasi, asks questions about the relevance of Srila Prabhupada's books now and in the future. I thought thats what we were talking about.

[cherry]

i thought it changed now to book changes lol
i thought you asked about where Prabhupada said 'no changes'
maybe you guys are talking about some other 'changes'
sorry if that is what is going on here
i'm not gonna change my post though, Prabhupada said no changes
lol :)

[vespertine212]

Are Srila Prabhupada's books the be all and end all for ISKCON devotees? Do we still assert that Srila Prabhupada's books are everything required for attaining perfection in Krishna consciousness? How do we co-mingle Srila Prabhupada's books with other books of our predecesor acaryas?

These are the questions of this discussion. These are the types of questions asked in the original post.

I think Rukmini Mataji has cited Prabhupada as requesting there be "no changes" to his movement as a way of saying that there should be "no changes" in our faith that Prabhupada's books are everything for ISKCON devotees, Prabhupada's books are the best way of teaching Krishna consciousness to the masses now and forever, ISKCON devotees should continue to remain fully commited to distributing Srila Prabhupada's books, etc.

This is not a thread about changing Srila Prabhupada's books. There was another thread where that was discussed at length.

I would still like to hear, perhaps from Rukmini Mataji, where and in what context Srila Prabhupada said there should be "no change." The only place a message like that was communicated in the link posted was in Govinda dasi talking about Prabhupada asking that paintings in his books not be changed. This is not the same issue. We are discussing the possibility of changes in the way we appreciate Srila Prabhupada's books. I think it's quite relevant to ask for example whether or not Srila Prabhupada's books are still the best books for introducing Krishna consciousness to new people, or whether a different type of presentation might be more effective.

I'd like to lay out my humble opinion, just so that all of my cards are on the table: I think Srila Prabhupada was a specially empowered and glorious acarya in the Gaudiya sampradaya. I think our position is always to worship and honor him as the founder/acarya of ISKCON, and the person responsible for bringing the matchless gift of Krishna consciousness to the Western world.

At the same time, I think ISKCON, and related organizations, have tended to deify Prabhupada in somewhat of an unhealthy way. We have tended to be a "Prabhupada cult" more than a cult of pure devotion to Radha and Krishna. Prabhupada has brought us the religion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Goswami, and we should recognize what it means to be Their followers first. We should learn what it means to be a Rupanuga Vaisnava, and hope to follow Srila Prabhupada with the beautiful aspirations of Rupa and Raghunatha as the real treasure of our hearts. By remaining connected to the astonishingly rich and deep tradition of our acaryas, we can remain focused on the essence of pure devotion, and avoid so much of the confussion which has often plagued our movement.

By such an approach, funny robes, funny processes of initiation, endless debate over ways of editing, etc. will automatically be avoided.

I beg to be forgiven for any offenses I may have writen in this post. Please be generous and forgiving with me if anything I've said here is upsetting to you. I hope that my superiors will correct me if there is something wrong in what I've said. I am interested and curious to hear your responses.

Hare Krishna.

[cherry]

I think it's quite relevant to ask for example whether or not Srila Prabhupada's books are still the best books for introducing Krishna consciousness to new people, or whether a different type of presentation might be more effective.


i find this question an insult to Prabhupada, but anyway, can i just ask a question?

what kind of books are you suggesting that we distribute to people to get them to come to Krsna?

[vespertine212]

what kind of books are you suggesting that we distribute to people to get them to come to Krsna?

I say "utility is the principle." Whatever books nurture faith in the conception of pure devotional surrender taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and our Goswami acaryas should be accepted. Whether or not such books were writen by Srila Prabhupada is secondary to that fundamental concern.

I'm sorry you consider it offensive that I question whether Srila Prabhupada's books are dated in being the best possible books for presenting Krishna consciousness to new people. I wonder if Srila Prabhupada would feel offended, or if his concern would be to do whatever it took to help people come to Krishna consciousness. I have trouble imagining that Srila Prabhupada is more concerned with his own glorification than the deliverance of conditioned souls.

[cherry]

hey i've got a good idea, why don't we just forget about Prabhupada's 'dated' books, and
Devamrta Swami can write new books!
what a breath of fresh air!
maybe that was where his 'homage' was going, if you can it a homage. you have to look really hard to find where he is actually glorifing Prabhupada at all!!
they have already starting replacing Prabhupada's books anyway, with all this editing.
they should rename the books too.
they should call the Gita the 'Bhagavada Gita As It Isn't' - by the GBC

i really just find it sad, that you can dismiss Prabhupada's books, like it is a little thing.
not only that, you have no idea what you would replace them with.
and you use the words 'utility is the principle' ... how ironic

actually, i don't think he glorified Prabhupada even once in his writing, can anyone see where he did?
so i don't know, we could write new books, or maybe it would be better just to set fire to whole world, at least it would be quick.
(in more ways than one)

we should end this conversation, it is going nowhere.
plus, your comment
'I have trouble imagining that Srila Prabhupada is more concerned with his own glorification than the deliverance of conditioned souls.'
shows to me that you must be envious of Prabhupada.

[vespertine212]

Ok, I'm an envious demon. If thats all you can say, I think thats pretty sad.

How unfortunate that the best response you can give is totally emotional and reactionary.

I have never dismissed Prabhupada's books! I've only said that other books may also be quite relevant. I think there are a number of options of books for helping people develop their Krishna consciousness; Prabhupada's books are one excellent option.

Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Jiva Goswami, Raghunatha das Goswami, Vrndavana das Thakura (who wrote the Caitanya Bhagavat you've quoted), Krishna das Kaviraja Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and so many other pure and exhaulted devotees have also writen books on Krishna consciousness which may be most favorable in helping people become devotees, or help devotees become better devotees.

Modern writers outside of ISKCON such as Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja, Ananta das Babaji and many many others have also made important and wonderful contributions.

And ISKCON writers such as Steven Rosen (Satyaraja das), Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Ravindra Swarupa das, Tamal Krishna Goswami, Satsvarupa das Goswami and many others have also added inportant contributions to our Vaisnava library.

In other words, there may be many options to helping people in their Krishna consciousness besides Prabhupada's books.

My attitude is that we may have many things to learn from so many wonderful Vaisnava authors. If that makes me an envious person in your eyes, then thats what I am. :(

[cherry]

hmm, so Prabhupada is dated, but Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Jiva Goswami, Raghunatha das Goswami, Vrndavana das Thakura
Krishna das Kaviraja Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, are not?
and you mention others, Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja etc etc as maybe good candidates ... these are quotes from Srihar Maharaja.
i would just be concerned about how clear it would be to the world, to the people at large, compared to Prabhupada, judge for yourself, and you tell me. First off, here is a quote from him, about himself.

"I am only concerned with my high thinking. That is my life. My spiritual thinking is my life."
.............................
now for some of his quotes -sorry for length, but it is very good, very interesting, but i don't think suitable for the world at large ...
.............................

"A higher conception of the finer world is here.

"In this way, step by step, you will have to come to the Krsna conception of Godhead.

"When our egoistic attitude vanishes, we will find ourself in the midst of sweet waves all
around. We should try to do away with whatever wrong we have done hitherto. We must do our
duty and never expect any definite result, but cast it towards the infinite.

"And then one day will come when our egoistic feeling will dissolve and from within, our
real seer, a member of the infinite world, will spring up and awaken, and we will find
ourselves in the sweet waves of that environment.

"He comes to live in the plane of divinity.

"So we have to awaken our interest in that plane, and ignore the interest of this plane.

"We have to approach the domain of knowledge with self-surrender, honest inquiry, and a
serving attitude. We will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of
that plane.

"We are trying to gain this knowledge, not so we can get the help of that plane, not so we
can utilize that experience for living here: rather we must give our pledge to serve that
knowledge. We shall serve that higher knowledge: we won't try to make it serve us.
Otherwise, we won't be allowed to enter into that domain. Absolute knowledge won't come to
serve this lower plane. We shall seek that plane of real knowledge...

"The intellect cannot approach the world of spirit...Only through faith, sincerity and
dedication can we approach that higher realm, and become a member. We can enter that
higher plane only if they grant us a visa and admit us. Then we can enter that land of
divine living. So a candidate must have these three qualifications before he can approach
the truth which is on the higher plane of absolute reality.

"With this ideal we shall be able to make progress. Our ideal, our highest model-that is
our all-in-all in life. To be on the path of realization of that goal is the greatest
wealth in ones life.

"He has given me the highest conception of the holy name of Krsna.

"Everyone should contribute to the center.

"You will have to dive deep...into the plane of the soul.

"We have to dive deep into that plane of reality.

"We should always be eager to devote ourselves exclusively to the highest duty.

"We will have to search for a person who is a bona fide agent of the higher world.

"We should have faith that if we do our duty towards the absolute...

"The heart is only full of Krsna, full of the Krsna conception.

"Divine love is the supreme most goal of every soul.

"They (gurus) will all help to carry me to the center.

"And there the Lord is engaged in his pastimes with His paraphernalia of equal quality.
We are trying to understand what is what in the spiritual thought world.

"And all conception of mundane, whether physical, mental, or intellectual, should be
eliminated in our journey if we want to go to the inner world of substance.

"Progress means elimination and acceptance.
........................
it is rather impersonal
Sulocana Das writes about Srihar Maharaja ..
To the impersonalists, these above words sound very nice. In fact I can easily see Rajneesh or any other bogus yogi saying such things to a Western audience. But Srila Prabhupada never said such things. The beauty of Krsna and Love for Krsna are certainly the highest goals but when they are constantly mentioned without mentioning or addressing the person, Krsna, the object of love, the possessor of beauty, it becomes impersonal. The impersonalists also appreciate the beauty and love that pervades the entire creation, but they have no appreciation for the person from whom those qualities emanate. Srila Prabhupada never talks of beauty and love without saying; "beauty of Krsna" and "love for Krsna." If one actually loves someone, he naturally says: "I love you." He never says; "I love." That is not only impersonal, but meaningless. We meet hippies constantly talking in these terms and we know perfectly well that they have misdirected their love. Other statements by Sridhar Maharaja further reveal this impersonal tendency in him such as:

"We shall serve that higher knowledge; we won't try to make it serve us.

"We must serve that plane.

"We have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

"To be acquainted with the conception of the highest ideal..."

A devotee who has a personal relationship with Krsna cannot speak such things. At least we are not meant to hear them since Srila Prabhupada never spoke that way.

[vespertine212]

If you want to get a good sense of the writing of Sridhar Maharaja, beyond a few disjointed quotes, I personally recommend "Golden Volcano of Divine Love" - a title which expresses the personalism of Krishna consciousness in very deep and beautiful terms.

Sridhar Maharaja is anything but an impersonalist!

I think what may be dated are not Srila Prabhupada's books themselves, but the conception that Srila Prabhupada's books are the only way, truth and light now and forever, and that other books may not also be highly useful in the cultivation of Krishna consciousness.

[vespertine212]

And who on earth is Sulocana das? He does not come across as a very thorough or objective scholar to say the least!

[cherry]

If you want to get a good sense of the writing of Sridhar Maharaja, beyond a few disjointed quotes, I personally recommend "Golden Volcano of Divine Love" - a title which expresses the personalism of Krishna consciousness in very deep and beautiful terms.

Sridhar Maharaja is anything but an impersonalist!

I think what may be dated are not Srila Prabhupada's books themselves, but the conception that Srila Prabhupada's books are the only way, truth and light now and forever, and that other books may not also be highly useful in the cultivation of Krishna consciousness.

so now Prabhupada's books are not dated? lol
and again you are saying about wanting more than just Prabhupada's books, i thought we finished with that ... i'll say again that Prabhupada's books are enough alone, but there is nothing wrong with reading other books
now you want to start hitting at someone you don't know, but don't consider a scholar, i don't know what this thread is about ... oh right, Devamrta homage ... that doesn't glorify Prabhupada once, asks can we stop putting emphasis on book distribution, and calling that a 'breath of fresh air' totally showing doubt in just about every statement of his 'homage' and is upset about purports clashing with the demonic scientific community etc etc.. and you defend this 'offering' that was actually put into Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa Puja book, thinking it is intelligent.
it is just obvious, you want to kill Prabhupada.
lol, sorry, but you do, and i don't know if you realise it, i think.
it makes you say the most crazy things, like Prabhupada's books are dated, but books 500 yrs ago might be good, or Narayana Maharaja, Sridhar Maharaja, (please, anyone?)
you think Prabhupada, after spending so much time writing books for the world, now 30 yrs later, would want us to stop using his books and use his Godbrothers, or other Maharaja's books, that were alive when he was here ... and you hate how iskcon, or other break away reform societies (from iskcon) want to glorify Prabhupada.
seems to me, you just want to replace Prabhupada, and you would put anyone or anything up there as long as it isn't Prabhupada.'

[vespertine212]

Are you capable of a rational discussion, or only capable of demonizing anyone with a different point of view?

For you to equate reconsidering emphasis on Prabhupada's books and exclusive distribution of Prabhupada's books with "killing Prabhupada" is so small minded.

When Prabhupada wrote books, was he killing his spiritual master or the predecesor acaryas? When he placed importance on his books instead of the books of previous acaryas was he killing them? Was he determined to tear down their glory and assert himself as the acarya?

You can know that when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sararaswati Thakura preached in his Gaudiya Math he mainly published the books of his father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, giving them prominance.

Why didn't Prabhupada do this? Why not translate and publish Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books? Why write so many new books and stress their study and distribution? Is it because he wanted to kill his spiritual master and grand spiritual master? Is it because he had no faith in his gurus and wanted to replace them with anyone else??

This opinion is totally insane. You want to worship Srila Prabhupada as an acarya, but you totally fail to learn anything from his actual example. Prabhupada was a dynamic preacher, which means he thought about how to preach carefully and dynamically and forcefully, and the proof of his empowerment is that he was so successful. You want to endlessly deify Prabhupada, and curse anyone who doesn't think of him the way you do, but you can do practically nothing to push on his mission. Your small mindedness keeps you from actually following the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada and doing whatever it takes to push on the sankirtan mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Yet when a devotee who has sacrificed his entire life to the mission of his guru, is responsible for so much distribution of the literature of his guru, and has taken on the heavy austerity of the life of a sannyasi, steps up and thinks progressively just as his guru did the best you can do is curse and demonize him.

Who is the one really killing Prabhupada? The devotee taking steps to be progressive in his preaching, or the devotee incapable of appreciating the deep spirit of Prabhupada's mission?

[cherry]

what a load of crap you speak.
no guru before Prabhupada wrote books FOR THE WESTERN WORLD.
they wrote books for the devotees, for full-on devotees, you don't seem to understand that at all!
Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivedanta are pure devotees, dear to Lord Krsna, what they did is perfect, in every way.
the books Prabhupada wrote are specially designed for the western world, perfect and complete.
anyone who thinks they are not are doomed.
and again, you say i am trying to only have Prabhupada's books distributed, exclusively, why do you keep saying this?
this conversation is just going round and round, like your life in this material world.

edit: please note, above '**' was very mild, i'm surprised it was censored.
it started with 'c', with an 'r' next, followed by 'a' and ended with 'p'
lol :)

[vespertine212]

no guru before Prabhupada wrote books FOR THE WESTERN WORLD.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you know anything about the books of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati? Do you know anything about their intended audience? Was Bhaktisiddhanta's Gaudiya Math only preaching to the converted? Was Bhaktisiddhanta only interested in preaching to Indians?

Have our acaryas only writen books for people who were already full-on devotees? That makes no sense at all. Are you trying to say no one ever preached to new people before Prabhupada??

These ideas are really so silly.

The books of our Goswami acaryas are meant for everyone. All of our acaryas books are meant for the benefit of all conditioned souls. Every spirit soul, western, eastern, whatever will benefit by hearing them. To distiguish between eastern and western is just thinking in terms of the bodily conception. IT MEANS NOTHING.

[cherry]

ok who's emotional now lol :)
i guess this is my fault, i didn't explain myself properely, of course our acaryas
books are for everyone, they are for the whole world.
let me put it this way, would you give a person, who had never heard of Krsna, had
no understanding at all of the Vedas, the Caitanya Bhagavata?
what about 'Bhakti-ratnakara' by Narahari Cakravarti Thakura, would you give that to
someone who didn't know squat about the Vedas?
What did Bhaktisiddhanta say to Prabhupada? - write books, go to the west to preach,
did he say 'translate my books and go to the west?'
Prabhupada's books are a perfect introduction for the western people, to start them
on the path to Krsna. If you can't see that, i just give up.
Prahupada's purports to books like the Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita, and especially the Caitanya Caritamrta are invaluable for us to help understand them.

[vespertine212]

Bhaktisiddhanta said: "if you ever get money, print books." If your claim is that he speciifically told Srila Prabhupada to write his own books, I'd like to see a reference.

let me put it this way, would you give a person, who had never heard of Krsna, had
no understanding at all of the Vedas, the Caitanya Bhagavata?
what about 'Bhakti-ratnakara' by Narahari Cakravarti Thakura, would you give that to
someone who didn't know squat about the Vedas?

These days, probably not. And that doesn't make me someone that wants to "kill" Vrndavana das Thakur or Narahari Cakravarti. Actually, it's because I don't think immediately introducing such books would be the most effective service to such great souls. Still, if I was preaching in bengal a few hundred years ago, I might have considered those books perfect for introducing new people to Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

If some hippie from the 70's that had never heard of Krishna wanted to learn about Krishna consciousness, who's book would I give him? Prabhupada's, definitely, every time. That's a no-brainer.

Fast forward to some big American city in 2006. If I'm a little sensative, I might realize that times have changed considerably since the 60's and 70's. People think differently. We are in a new environment. No more hippies. Lets say I meet a young, educated adult, who has minimal understand of Krishna consciousness. He knows of the Hare Krishna's as the guys from the 70's that wore orange robes and sold flowers and harrassed people at the airport. I want to help this person by helping them come closer to surrender to the lotus feet of Krishna. How can I help? Are Prabhupada's books still the best means?

Maybe I'm not sure. Maybe in my experience, people today don't respond to Prabhupada's books the way they used to. Maybe it's time to think of new, more dynamic strategies...

Maybe the best way to serve Srila Prabhupada's mission is to give this person another type of book, writen by a different author, that he may be better able to relate with.

Our sampradaya will survive if people can be dynamic and think progressively. Have you ever studied the reforms of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? Do you have any clue as to the changes Srila Prabhupada made from the standards of his own spiritual master? If you had ever studied these things you might realize that our acaryas are empowered devotees capable of adapting to different times, places and circumstances.

If you want Krishna consciousness from the 70's forever, great. You can live in your little bubble, and ecstatically watch as you become more and more irrelevant and marginal. You can watch as the conditioned souls of modern times are less and less able to relate to Krishna consciousness. You can watch Krishna consciousness die in western countries.

Devamrita Swami is not a miser. He wants to expand Krishna consciousness dynamically. He does not want to be a lazy thinker, holding helplessly onto the dogmas of his gurudeva while watching his mission go to hell. Dynamic, enthusiastic preaching is the essence of Srila Prabhupada's mission. Maharaja's homage is real glorification, because he hopes to serve the real heart and spirit of his gurudeva by creatively thinking of new and dynamic ways to preach.

[cherry]

ok, Bhaktisiddhanta said to Prabhupada to preach in the west, and print books, so preaching is also writing books.
and anyway, Prabhupada's main books were Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, Caitanya Caritamrta and Krsna Book, these are not personally his 'own books'.

As far as references to 'hippies' goes, in his books, big deal, that is so small time. How lame can you get.

Devamrta Maharaja wants to be Prabhupada. First step is to get rid of Prabhupada's books.

[vespertine212]

Devamrta Maharaja wants to be Prabhupada. First step is to get rid of Prabhupada's books.

You can disagree with him, but why do you continue to have to blaspheme him? This is really so obnoxious and unnecessary.

What do you know about someone's motivations? What are yours? Cross examine yourself.

[cherry]

thank you for making me look at my motives
i can only conclude, that my motive is that i want to keep Prabhupada at the center.
if this makes me a fool, then so be it, i pray to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda that they always allow me to be a fool for Prabhupada.

[vespertine212]

Perhaps our difference is that you want to keep Prabhupada in the center, and I want to realize Prabhupada's instruction to keep Krishna in the center.

In any case, why not stay humble and avoid criticizing senior Vaisnavas, even when we disagree with them? I'm confident Srila Prabhupada would be very pleased with at least that basic level of Vaisnava relations.

Ok, so it is wrong to question the methods of Devamrta, GBC, BBT and others within today's iskCON but it is ok for you to question the methods of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada.

Now don't backtrack and say you did not question their methods and accuse them of making "unauthorized" changes - all one has to do and go to your previous posts and there are your opinions in black and white.

Is this what they taught you in your visits to the iskCON temples and programs? I was stunned to read that you consider yourself a part of Prabhupada's organization. How truly sad! Is iskCON really this far gone?

I am not the only person on this planet that finds your statements about Prabhupada offensive. I have heard from others concerning this.

Also, are you the one posting the same rhetoric on Audarya Fellowship? Same m.o. but whether you are or not - the posts there are being met with the same feelings that I expressed here to you -

Goodbye Vespi and good luck.



Perhaps our difference is that you want to keep Prabhupada in the center, and I want to realize Prabhupada's instruction to keep Krishna in the center.

In any case, why not stay humble and avoid criticizing senior Vaisnavas, even when we disagree with them? I'm confident Srila Prabhupada would be very pleased with at least that basic level of Vaisnava relations.

[vespertine212]

To question is one thing - to blatantly criticize is quite another.

I've politely asked questions about Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktisiddanta's changes without criticizing them. Instead, I've consistently praised and respected them - that's also in black and white.

Go ahead and question Devamrita Swami all you want. But why let people slam him, as a few participants here feel free to do?

For you, to ask a question about something Prabhupada did is automatically offensive. But to slam one of Prabhupada's senior disciples is tolerable, and passes without comment. I think this is an unfortunate contradiction.

And no, I've never participated in the Audarya Fellowship Forums.

[madhu]

Dandabats,
We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaja. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a long time, since perhaps 1930. At that time he had not accepted sannyasa, but had just left home. He went to preach in Allahabad, and on that auspicious occasion we were connected.

Sridhar Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such HIGH REALISATIONS of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, liked him to prepare me. OUR RELATIONSHIP IS VERY INTIMATE.

After the breakdown of our spiritual master's institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaja the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaja is one of the FINEST PREACHERS of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him.

For spiritual advancement of life we MUST go to some-one who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksha guru, or B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. I consider Sridhar Maharaja to be even my siksha guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association...HDG Srila Prabhupada .

hey cherry ,Srila Prabhupada calls Sridhar Maharaja a pure devotee AND his own siksha guru, but you call His Divine Grace an impersonalist ! eh! i think i'll stick with Srila Prabhupada thanx!... remember what happened to sulochana..
this offender, tried to twist the words of Srila Prabhupada and a few days later he was dead. Such is the fate of the envious. Who cares for the opinion of such demoniac minds ? Srila Prabhupada considered Sridhar Maharaja as his siksha guru, so either you accept this or reject Srila Prabhupada..no other choice ! or perhaps you are claiming that Srila Prabhupada accepted an impersonalist as a guru ?
Better to find a "living" guru and surrender to him. Being envious of B.R. Sridhar Maharaja is spiritual suicide ,as certain fools have discovered ! Ritvik..fully empowered representitive ! personally i am fortunate to have been initiated by an Uttama Adhikari ,so i don't have to worry about book changes etc..but the devotees of ISKCON who accept a living guru as diksha, and Srila Prabhupada and Sri Parampara as siksha , get along fine, the others ,well they start threads saying "can you beleive THIS ? look ...stool !" simply time wasting !
as for cherry.. completely purified of impersonalism and voidism already ! eh ! what a puffed-up fool ! you should tell Srila Prabhupada he made a mistake , since you're so advanced.. ha ha ! !
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/graphics/sp_ssm.jpg

[madhu]

Actually it's ISKCON !

[madhu]

Gauranga

[honeyflowerservant]

no guru before Prabhupada wrote books FOR THE WESTERN WORLD.
don't you know that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur wrote "The Life and Precepts of Lord Caitanya" and sent it to the west? you don't seem to be very well informed. Perhaps until you are you should keep your uninformed opinions to yourself. No offense though.. :P

[cherry]

yes i do know that thank you very much.
what i meant was, Prabhupada particularly wrote a lot of books for the western world on all aspects of spiritual life.
in my later posts i clarify that. i just didn't explain myself properely.
sorry if i upset you.

[cherry]

sorry about comments about Srihar Maharaja, i do like him, i was just saying i think Prabhupada's way of speaking is very personal compared to Srihar Maharaja. i never actually called him an impersonalist.
sorry sorry sorry sorry

sorry about comments about Srihar Maharaja, i do like him, i was just saying i think Prabhupada's way of speaking is very personal compared to Srihar Maharaja. i never actually called him an impersonalist.
sorry sorry sorry sorry

That's was the reason Madhu called you a demon? You posted one quote that someone else made about Sridhar?

Madhu, did it ever occur to you that she did not know that posting someone else's quote upset you?

Why did you not just let her know this instead of gnashing your teeth and screaming "DEMON" at her?

Have you not noticed the maha maha offenses to Srila Prabhupada on this forum? You must have because I kept pointing them out.

[madhu]

??????

[vespertine212]

Cherry's last post ended with "sorry sorry sorry sorry" - I think that's an apology.

Has anyone had any more thoughts on this issue of Devamrta Swami's offering?

[madhu]

"Sridhar Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such high realizations of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate."
HDG AC Bhaktiventa Swami Prabhupada

??????

What is it that you don't understand? My post just above this is very clear. Do I need to type slower?

"Sridhar Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such high realizations of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate."
HDG AC Bhaktiventa Swami Prabhupada

The last sentence in this quote is very important - "Our relationship is very intimate." Think on it with an open mind.

Srila Prabhupada told us (his disicples) to stay away from his godbrothers.

Many have taken that to mean that we should be disrepectful and offensive towards them but obviously Srila Prabhupada would never condone that sort of behavior.

However, Prabhupada had his reasons for giving us the instruction to stay away from them just as he did with all instructions given to us.

[madhu]

,Srila Prabhupada (OUR GURU) has 1000's of godbrothers ,but Srila Sridhara Maharaja is more.. ( than this.) Srila Prabhupada accepted HDG as his instructing spiritual master .While sharing the Vyasasana with him at the grand opening Shri Chandrodaya Mandir Srila Prabhupada clearly says "I consider Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be my shiksha guru and Sripad Govinda Maharaja to be my dearmost son"
Also on that occasion Srila Prabhupada sang the glories of Srila Sridhara Maharaja by saying " Jaya Om Vishnupada
Paramahamsa Srila Bhakti Rakshak Shridhar Maharaj ki jaya" a glorification that is only ever offered to one's guru. Srila Prabhupada clearly says on many occasions that we should take shelter of Srila Sridhara Maharaja and it is a fact that Srila Prabhupada and the devotees lived with Sridhara Maharaja in the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math until Sri Mayapur temple was built. and then Srila Prabhupada invited Sridhara Maharaja to come and stay there . Hardly a case of telling us to "stay away"
The GBC covered all this up, of course.
you seem to repeatedly take the "superior position" and are somewhat sarcastic at times, i don't remember Srila Prabhupada speaking like this ..what do you hope to achieve ?
i am VERY fortunate to have accepted 3 pure devotees as my guardians , They are free from any desire for fame, disciples or wealth ,so only i can mess up my life, so may The Lord protect me from the foolishness of interpretting their divine instruction, and let me just accept it , as it is, AMEN !
http://www.vaisnava.com/triguru.jpg

The last sentence in this quote is very important - "Our relationship is very intimate." Think on it with an open mind.

Srila Prabhupada told us (his disicples) to stay away from his godbrothers.

Many have taken that to mean that we should be disrepectful and offensive towards them but obviously Srila Prabhupada would never condone that sort of behavior.

However, Prabhupada had his reasons for giving us the instruction to stay away from them just as he did with all instructions given to us.

I realize now that I used the words "stay away" in my previous post. That was a poor choice of words on my part and I feel conveys a very negative message and I apologize for that.

Madhu, Please re-read this post. I only repeat the instruction from Prabhupada for us (his disciples) not to go to his godbrothers. I also stress that we are not to be offensive towards them nor are we to be disrepectful. Although, I can not speak for others, I personally abide by that.

Do you expect that anytime anyone says anything that you will be offended? Do you even read the whole posts here?

Srila Prabhupada always acted in proper Vaisnava behavior and to offer his godbrother a seat next to him shows this. Also, Prabhupada's praise is just that also. Prabhupada was always a humble, proper Vaisnava gentleman.

Prabhupada offered George Harrison a seat next to him also (and gave George high praise whenever he spoke of him)- does that mean that after Prabhupada left the planet we were to run to George ask him how to run iskcon? BTW, to George's credit he did not accept the seat.

So we too need to respect and treat Prabhupada's godbrothers in proper Vaisnava manner while following his instructions to not go to them for advise on how to run iskcon.

Stop expecting and looking for only offenses in the posts here. I can present many quotes from Srila Prabhupada on our (Prabhupada's disciples) relationship with his godbrothers.

But I think because you can only pull out supposed offenses from each and every post here then I will refrain from presenting them to you.

The GBC covered all this up, of course.

:lol: After reading my posts anywhere on this forum, do you really think I would abide by anything the GBC says! http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/style_emoticons/default/rolfmao.gif

[madhu]

Actually Srila Prabhupada shared Sri Vyasasana with Srila Shridhar Maharaja,not a seat.
You replied to my post ignoring almost all the facts and focusing on one point (incorrectly).. a seat. Why did you miss Srila Prabhupada addressing Srila Shridhar Maharaja.."Jaya Om Vishnupada etc..." a title ONLY offered to one's Guru.. you infer that Srila Prabhupada was only "being humble" this is ridiculous ! and you continue to mislead others with your claim that HDSP told us not to hear from Srila Shridhar Maharaja....
..
.Sridhar Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such HIGH REALISATIONS of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, liked him to prepare me. OUR RELATIONSHIP IS VERY INTIMATE.

After the breakdown of our spiritual master's institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaja the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaja is one of the FINEST PREACHERS of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him.

For spiritual advancement of life we MUST go to some-one who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksha guru, or B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. I consider Sridhar Maharaja to be even my siksha guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association...HDG Srila Prabhupada .

" After reading my posts anywhere on this forum, do you really think I would abide by anything the GBC says! "

...sorry to tell you but this is simply false ego.
you say i am looking for offences..but i am not the one who started a thread..."can you believe this"
and we should be humble towards SP's Godbrothers..ha ha who are we but.......
Srila Prabhupada tells us that Sridhar Maharaja is a pure devotee, his siksha guru and great preacher..and you would rather spend your time laughing at Devamrita swami than take association of such a pure devotee..simply amazing.
As for me looking for offenses..i see what is there, perhaps you should engage in a little self analysis for a change. personally i am not dazzled by the "Prabhupada disciple" thing and i will fight for the truth and fight against anyone who offends Pure devotees, is this a bad thing ?

YAWN!


Actually Srila Prabhupada shared Sri Vyasasana with Srila Shridhar Maharaja,not a seat.
You replied to my post ignoring almost all the facts and focusing on one point (incorrectly).. a seat. Why did you miss Srila Prabhupada addressing Srila Shridhar Maharaja.."Jaya Om Vishnupada etc..." a title ONLY offered to one's Guru.. you infer that Srila Prabhupada was only "being humble" this is ridiculous ! and you continue to mislead others with your claim that HDSP told us not to hear from Srila Shridhar Maharaja....
..
.Sridhar Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such HIGH REALISATIONS of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, liked him to prepare me. OUR RELATIONSHIP IS VERY INTIMATE.

After the breakdown of our spiritual master's institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaja the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaja is one of the FINEST PREACHERS of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him.

For spiritual advancement of life we MUST go to some-one who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksha guru, or B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. I consider Sridhar Maharaja to be even my siksha guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association...HDG Srila Prabhupada .

" After reading my posts anywhere on this forum, do you really think I would abide by anything the GBC says! "

...sorry to tell you but this is simply false ego.
you say i am looking for offences..but i am not the one who started a thread..."can you believe this"
and we should be humble towards SP's Godbrothers..ha ha who are we but filthy westerners ?
Srila Prabhupada tells us that Sridhar Maharaja is a pure devotee, his siksha guru and great preacher..and you would rather spend your time laughing at Devamrita swami than take association of such a pure devotee..simply amazing.
As for me looking for offenses..i see what is there, perhaps you should engage in a little self analysis for a change. personally i am not dazzled by the "Prabhupada disciple" thing and i will fight for the truth and fight against anyone who offends Pure devotees, is this a bad thing ?

Here is something for you to do Madhu:

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/75901/0/collapsed/5/o/1

Go at it. Knock yourself out.

[madhu]

sorry i'm not one of your followers..i need a living guru !

sorry i'm not one of your followers..i need a living guru !

Madhu if this silly remark is about the link i just gave you then you obviously did not look at the posts on that thread. It is long but the thread is filled with post talking about your guru.

Don't be so reactionary.

[madhu]

It is long but the thread is filled with post talking about your guru.


There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.
Srila Prabhupada Bombay 1936

Oh, govi errr...I mean Madhu. Take a deep breath and stop looking for offenses. Now go up to the Sex thread in the other section and answer my last question to you.

See ya Pank....err...I mean Madhu.


It is long but the thread is filled with post talking about your guru.


There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.
Srila Prabhupada Bombay 1936

[madhu]

oh i didn't get it....no i'm not any of the above, i am in fact ..Madhu.

[madhu]

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

What Sripada Sridhara Maharaja has directed, I take it on my head.It is appropriate that I should accept his direction. (SP Ltr. Govinda Mj, 12-9-69)

What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru as my siksa guru . (SP, ISKCON Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Sridhara Maharaja and others. (SP Conversation, Allahabad, January 13, 1977) [1]

One of my important godbrothers [Sridhara Maharaja] says. He's sincere. He says, "The prediction of Caitanya-caritamrta, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama So you have done it." (SP LA Morning Walk, December 11, 1973 & SP Ltr. Bon Maharaja, July 7, 1975) [2]

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha I wanted to organize another organization making Sridhara Maharaja as the head. (SP Conversation, March 17, 1973) [3]

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhara Maharaja the head. (March 1973) [5]

Even amongst our godbrothers we have misunderstanding, but none of us is astray from the service of Krsna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately, we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krsna consciousness. Even there was misunderstanding amongst the godbrothers of my Guru Maharaja, none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krsna. (SP Ltr. Brahmananda, November 18, 1967)

The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami are all godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion and we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. ( Bhag. 4.28.31)

So far as your question about controversy amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja, that is a fact. But this controversy is not material. Just like in a national program, different political parties are sometimes in conflict and make propaganda against each other, but their central point is always service to the country. Similarly, amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati there may be some controversy, but the central point is how to preach the mission of His Divine Grace. (SP Ltr. Mandali Bhadra, July 28, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada replied, "You can write when you are realized, but now none of you are realized."

oh i didn't get it....no i'm not any of the above, i am in fact ..Madhu.

Thank you for clearing that up. I am not the only one that thought this.

I have said this before and now I will say it again for the last time - Srila Prabhupada instructed us to not go to his godbrothers for help with iskcon (again there are many quotes to back this up) but I am certain that he would not approve of being rude or offensive towards them.

Take that as you will but there are only so many ways to say the exact same thing over and over and over.........

[vespertine212]

With due respect, Rukmini Mataji, Madhu has been kind enough to provide quotes from Srila Prabhupada that indicate his faith in and appreciation for his Godbrothers, including quotes instructing disciples to take advantage to their association. Can you provide us with the quotes which substanciate your claim, that Prabhupada's Godbrothers must be strictly avoided?

Even if you can, these two types of quotes will need to be reconciled.

My very humble perception, which some senior Prabhupada disciples have also expressed, is that Srila Prabhupada's instructions to avoid his Godbrothers are circumstancial instructions, not absolute principles.

Sometimes an acarya will preach a relative instruction in an absolute way to protect the faith of the disciple. But an advanced disciple can appreciate the real intentions of the guru, and serve those intentions.

In the deliverance of Raghunatha das Goswami in the Antya lila of Caitanya Caritamrta, Mahaprabhu speaks very strongly against das Goswami's parents, calling them worms in stool even though they were Vaisnavas. He wanted to encourage the renunciation of das Goswami. This illustrates that an acarya may speak according to time place and circumstance.

In one sense this discussion is moot, because there are practically no prominant disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati still here. But if we are wondering how to associate with today's Gaudiya Math, I think it may be wise to consider Prabhupada's intentions carefully, even if it may seem to contradict some of his statements at face value.

Prabhupada taught us what is a Vaisnava and how to recognize one. He also taught that devotees require good association to make spiritual advancement. I think those instructions are what are most important here.

Of course I can! :D

"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75

"I can understand this cunning Puri dasa has taken advantage of your simplicity. So any of my godbrothers cannot help me in this way of book writing because they are unfortunate in the matter of preaching work. They are simply trying to infiltrate our society to do something harmful by this attempt. So please do not have any correspondence with this Puri or any of my godbrothers, so- called..." ~ SP letter to Karuna Sindhu Nov 9, 1975

"But one thing is, all of these arrangements, whether they are going to receive us at each place or if we are just taking the place to put on our own program? From their side we should be received, not just that we simply canvass to take their place for our own program. The Gaudiya Math invitation should not be accepted." ~ SP letter to Bhavananda, Jan 20, 72


"So any one of my godbrothers cannot help me in this way of book writing because they are unfortunate in the matter of preaching work. They are simply trying to infiltrate our society to so something harmful by their attempt. So please do not have any correspondence with this Purusottama or any of my godbrothers, so-called." ~ SP letter to Karaunasindhu, Bombay, Nov 9, 75

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men. My Guru Maharaja once told this story; one friend informed another that one man has become the High Court Judge. "Oh no," he replied, "No. That cannot be right." "Yes, he is now a Judge," said the first friend. "I have seen him sitting on the bench." The second man replied, "Maybe. But I don't think he is getting any salary." Such envious men will find out some fault anywhere. There is no fault, actually, but they will manufacture some fault. That is their business. So many persons were envious of my Guru Maharaja, but He was preaching and did not care for them." ~ SP letter to Yamuna dd, Nov 18, 70


"Regarding Bhakti Puri, Tirtha Maharaja, they are my God-brothers and should be shown respect. But you should not have any intimate connection with them as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja." Srila Prabhupada Letter to Pradyumna 02/17/68

"Now, one thing is I understand that in the past you were visiting Lalita Prasadji and that you may also be planning to continue to visit him when you return to India. This is not approved by me and I request you not to go to see him any more. He holds a grudge against my Guru Maharaja and even if it is transcendental it will gradually appear mundane in our eyes." ~ SP letter to Gurukripa and Yashodananda Swamis, Dec 25, 1975

"In Mayapura India Madhava Maharaja came over and shouted at Srila Prabhupada, pointed in his face with his finger quite rudely -- to stop using the title "Prabhupada." Devotees were very worried and alarmed at this sub-violent outburst. Then Prabhupada said (paraphrased), "Post a guard at my door, my Godbrothers might try to harm me."

"In Isana and his wife's letters there is reference to Tirtha Maharaja's name, as if they were advised by Brahmananda Maharaja and company to come to India and join Tirtha Maharaja. It appears like that. I shall be glad if you kindly inquire on this point. It is now clear that my Godbrothers take objection of my being called as Prabhupada and on this point they wanted to poison the whole Society - that is now clear. But how it was manipulated - that is a mystery." ~ SP letter to Rupanuga, Sept 25, 70, Calcutta

"You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation." Srila Prabhupada's letter to Acutananda 6/8/74

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple." SP letter to Niranjana, Brooklyn, May 21, 73

"If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress." Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77

"Damodara Maharaja is a dangerous man. Remain very cautious with him. He is always causing difficulty. Regarding the two men who have come to us from Gaudiya Math, for the time being we should try not to give shelter to such persons unless they are tested." Srila Prabhupada letter to Jayapataka, Hyderbad, Dec. 4, 1976

"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning." Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77

"So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras." Srila Prabhupada's letter to Niranjana 5/21/73

"Different Godbrothers took the words of Guru Maharaja in different interpretations for sense gratification and the whole mission disrupted." ~ SP letter to Tamala Krishna, Titenhurst, Oct 18, 69

"For practical example I may say that one of my Godbrothers, a sannyasi, he was deputed to go to London for starting a temple, but three or four years he remained there, he could not execute the will; therefore he was called back. Now, I sent six married couples. All of them are present here. And they worked so nicely that within one year we started our London temple, and that is going on very nicely." ~ BG 7.3 S.P. lecture, Bombay, March, 29, 71

"Just like my Godbrothers. The propensity is that “ Oh, he has become greater than us, ” they are very envious. Their propensity is to become but they could not, they are therefore envious. This is materialism. There is no spiritual sense here. " SB 7.7.28, Mombassa, Sept 11, 71

"So far as cooperating with my Godbrothers is concerned, that is not very urgent business. So far until now my Godbrothers have regularly not cooperated with me and by the grace of my Spiritual Master, things are still going ahead. So cooperation or non-cooperation, it is the desire of Bhaktivinode Thakura to preach the Caitanya cult all over the world and in 1875 he predicted that someone would come very soon who would individually preach this *cult all over the world. So if his benediction is there and my Guru Maharaja's blessings are there, we can go ahead without any impediment but all of us must be very sincere and serious. We have been a little inflicted by public criticism that we Godbrothers do not work together. My Guru Maharaja wanted also us to work together but some how or other it has not happened up until now. So your program of cooperating with Madhava Maharaja is not so important." ~ SP letter to Jayapataka, Gorakhpur, Feb 23, 71

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72

"Regarding Bon and Tirtha Maharaja, they are my godbrothers and should be shown respect. But you should not have any intimate connection with them, as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja." ~ SP letter to Pradumnya, Feb 17, 1968

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination." ~ S.P. letter to Sukadeva, New Delhi, Nov 14, 73

I included other "Godbrother" quotes along with the "stay away" quotes which is more than you requested but I decided to do it anyway.

So, if you read all the above quotes you will see that Srila Prabhupada instructed us to not go to his godbrothers but to be respectful.

Nowhere can it be found that Prabhupada changed this instruction to us.

[vespertine212]

Ok, so what, if anything, do these quotes mean to us now that Prabhupada's godbrothers have all basically left the planet? How are the instructions relevant to future followers of Srila Prabhupada?

For example does this mean no grand disciples of Prabhupada should associate with disciples of Prabhupada's godbrothers, etc.?

Ok, so what, if anything, do these quotes mean to us now that Prabhupada's godbrothers have all basically left the planet? How are the instructions relevant to future followers of Srila Prabhupada?

For example does this mean no grand disciples of Prabhupada should associate with disciples of Prabhupada's godbrothers, etc.?

My father used to say, " If if were a skift we'd go for a drift!" Sounds silly? Yes, I know but basically "what if" questions mean nothing.

Please note the instructions include books, temples everything.

I don't feel inclined to sit here and "analyze" Prabhupada's instructions like so many like to do to "figure them out". They are basic and clear.

Hare Krishna! :)

[vespertine212]

I think you misunderstood me, because I did not ask that type of "what if" question.

Prabhupada's godbrothers aren't around anymore. Do Prabhupada's instructions to avoid them still mean anything?

Why are these anything but outdated instructions? Why should I still care that Prabhupada said these things?

[judas]

how can a bunch of neophytes born of demoiac families, chanting for a fraction of a second , be anything BUT offensive to the pure devotees, that are SP's godbrothers'. Srila Prabhupada may have been requested to go to hell to save the people there, and thats why HDG did it. for others to do so would only have been false ego. following the order of the spiritual master is all in all. a godbrother of SP's (sanyassi) had the possibility of converting a whole village, when this was reported to Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta, he replied.. "Who asked him to,anyway?"

Krsn consciousness is the most secret of secrets, when Srila Prabhupada says that Srila Shridhara Maharaja is HIS siksha guru, and after his departure, a disciple does NOT go and take shelter of HDG, but would rather hang around complaining about the state of things, one has to wonder about their motives. Who are they surrendered to ?
guru is not flesh and blood but the message he carries. and that message is living. the crfew that did run ISKCON have done a great job, haven't they ? isms & skisms, where is the love

[varadaraja sharma]

Radhe krishna

Judas, i m getting confused by ur musings

m not in ISKCON

but I find these people highly arrogant and devoid of bhakthi or knowledge but still crticising one and all

Radhe krishna