Lord Krishna Forum - Krishna Talk

vespertine212 · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 42

Dear Devotees,

Srila Rupa Goswami has said in his Bhakti rasamrta sindhu (1.2.295) that one should follow the residents of Vrndavana both externally and internally. Traditionally, Gaudiya Vaisnavas have followed the system of siddha pranali and ekadas bhava to accomidate for this practice. Bhaktivinoda Thakura also followed this, wrote about it in a few of his books, and gave siddha pranali to his initiated disciples. Jagannatha das Babaji also followed this process.

But ISKCON doesn't do this. Why? How will the followers of Srila Prabhupada cultivate their siddha deha without the very important information of siddha pranali given to them?

And why is it that even though in a disciplic succession a guru is supposed to give the disciple instructions without changing the message of parampara, Srila Prabhupada changed this very important point? Why can some gurus change things and others cannot?

Thank you!

Flower Child · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 14

This is both an advanced and a confidential topic. Best to keep this between your guru and yourself because of confusion from speculations. Iskcon devotees do not discuss this openly.

His Divine Grace gave everything. You just need to read his books to see.
Why did you jump from Bhativinoda Thakur to Bhaktivedanta Swami? Are you of the school that does not recognize Bhaktisiddhanta Goswami as acarya?

His Divine Grace did not change anything. He gave just as he learned from his guru.

I am not smart because a smart devotee would not even respond to this thread.

Bas.

vespertine212 · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 42

I'm not of any "school." I'm just in the school of trying to figure things out with the hopes of pursuing a progressive spiritual life.

I have deep respect and regard for Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. But I'd like some insight into why this important consideration was changed by them in our parampara. I'm not challenging or criticizing. I'd just like to know why they did what the did...

On a certain level, I agree that Srila Prabhupada gave "everything" because Mahaprabhu's mercy includes everything. Still, certain practices which were common for many centuries in Mahaprabhu's line were changed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada. I think it's only reasonable that we ask why.

Flower Child · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 14

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/ubbthreads.php?Cat=

Madhava · Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 29 Location: Radha-kunda

You may find this essay useful in studying the subject matter.

I have no comments to make on why Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivedanta changed this; may that be left to their followers to explain. There are many explanations out there, B.G. Narasingha, B.V. Tripurari, B.V. Narayan and the rest have their views on the matter. See if some among them satisfies you. (I don't have the resources at hand, if someone has -- do post them in.)

mathuranath das · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 20

I am no expert on this high topic but would like to share some ideas in this regard gleaned at the Lotus Feet of my Gurudeva...Srila Prabhupad was fully aware of Siddha pranali and everything that is associated with it. However, in his great love and concern for our saftey he did not encourage such expressions as it would be very detrimental to our progress. My Guru Maharaj gave the example of the child who is destined to grow up to be president, if you tell the child that he will one day be president and he begins to strut around pretending to be what he is not yet, he will check his progress towards becoming what he is actually meant to become by behaving as a normal child, doing childish deeds in the present. Though we are in a fallen state, it is our present condition and the passage through all the difficulties associated with it that will ultimately lead to the unfoldment of our inner hearts awakenment through Grace. Through service and Grace we will realize our inner identity. Sevon mukhi hi jivadau. Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupad composed the following poem at the time of the diety procession from the rented house to the newly constructed gaudiya Math bldg. in Calcutta.

puja raghupat gauravabangi matala hari jana vishaya rangi

The purport is that we shall take our place of service far away from the intimacy of Sri Sri Radha & Krsna. By honestly and sincerely serving our Gurudeva in practical ways here and now, doing the needful, we shall be called into higher service when they, of the "upper house" deem it necessary. Srila Sridhar Maharaj liked to quote the old expression "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" There is also a bengali saying to the effect that "to much devotion is the sign of a thief". Srila Prabhodananda Saraswati Thakur, who's internal identity is one of the eight principle gopis has written that we should be content to only bow our heads in the direction of those higher pastimes. So what's our qualification to understand siddha pranli? none. zip. zero. Less than zero. Its not an ascending process. We cannot move into transcendence by mechanical processes of "sadhana". By sacrifice, surrender, sincerity, and intense hankering...tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam janma koti sukrtair na labyate...Krsna sees the condition of our inner heart and gives a coresponding revelation in proportion to our intense and sincere need and thirst for Grace. Mahaprabhu shows us His intense longing in seperation for Krsna. Are we ready to pay that price. I doubt it. If someone comes to tell you such things you should run in the opposite direction. Forget about siddha pranali and find a genuine vaisnava. Serve that pure soul honestly with all your heart. Your inner identity will be revealed to you when (in the words of Srila Sridhar Maharaj) you are ready to "die to live".

mathuranathadas · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Siddha Pranali

vespertine212 wrote: Dear Devotees,

Srila Rupa Goswami has said in his Bhakti rasamrta sindhu (1.2.295) that one should follow the residents of Vrndavana both externally and internally. Traditionally, Gaudiya Vaisnavas have followed the system of siddha pranali and ekadas bhava to accomidate for this practice. Bhaktivinoda Thakura also followed this, wrote about it in a few of his books, and gave siddha pranali to his initiated disciples. Jagannatha das Babaji also followed this process.

But ISKCON doesn't do this. Why? How will the followers of Srila Prabhupada cultivate their siddha deha without the very important information of siddha pranali given to them?

And why is it that even though in a disciplic succession a guru is supposed to give the disciple instructions without changing the message of parampara, Srila Prabhupada changed this very important point? Why can some gurus change things and others cannot?

Thank you! Dandavat pranams Though i am afallen animal still i heard afew snipets in this regard from the vaisnavas in the line of param pujapada Bakisidanta Sarisvati THakur and ISKCON's Prabupada.-""Guru can see the svarup of his disciple and trains him accordingly''..."unless you can see the svarup of the Guru whose bajan will you do baba ? You must do the bajan of the Guru''.[is our identity only in relationship to our Gurus residence ,seva ,juta etc?]

judas · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

Jaya mathuranath prabhu, fine words.
All glories to HDG Srila Shridhara Maharaja, who truly is The Gaurdian of Devotion.
and dear flowerchild, not only should we not be discussing these things openly...we should not even "think" about them. we are 2 follow the line of Sri Rupa, and serve the sankirtana movement,and by serving Mahaprabhu, we safely serve Sri Sri Radha Krishna.

followers of Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada are most certainly following a resident of Sri Vrindavan..Srila Prabhupada.

please forgive me, altho' i am certainly scripturally-challenged, have no devotion, still envy Lord Krishna, wanting to enjoy all that is His,the rays of mercy that emanates from these 2 great souls still shines on me, sufficiently enough to remind me that the "medicine" of hearing and remembering confidential pastimes would only cause me to sink into the oblivion of "imitation-bhakti", and i think i'm in enough trouble thank you very much.

also, considering the amazingly, wonderful, supremely, seemingly impossible feat of "single-handedly" establishing (successfuly) the mission of Sri Mahaprabhu in the western world..i think this gives HDG the right to say that 2 and 2 equals 3, and we should agree. however HDG is a pure devotee, so he only repeats what he has heard from HIS gurudeva, backed by scripture.

my Godbrothers and God sisters have a phrase that we like,which goes....

"WE DON'T CARE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW, TILL WE KNOW HOW MUCH YOU CARE ! "

thank God (for my sake) that they are ultimately merciful.
All the Vaisnavas ki jai Sri Sri Gaura Nitai ki jai

ps..as you probably guessed i'm just pretending to be humble, i'm actually a complete and total ba.......judas

judas · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

Flower Child wrote:
His Divine Grace did not change anything. He gave just as he learned from his guru.

what about..women living in temples ?

the whole Maha mantra being sung b4 it being repeated (previously 1/2 was sung,then other half.( in his gurudevas' movement)

in Srila Prabhupada's Gurudevas' maths' Lord Chaitanya shares the altar with Sri Sri Radha Krsna, Lord Nityananda is not present .

16 rounds was Srila Prabhupada's idea.

preached meaning of Rama, in Hare Rama ??????

Srila Prabhupada is NOT different from any other Guru,( as guru) because guru is one, The Parampara is acting thru him, he is not fufilling his desire, but Theirs, same as the guru before him. As always They are successful as Lord Krsna says

yatra yoge?varah? kr?s?n?o
yatra p?rtho dhanur-dharah?
tatra ?r?r vijayo bh?tir
dhruv? n?tir matir mama

Wherever there is Kr?s?n?a, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion.

Jai Srila Prabhupada

varadaraja sharma · Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 53

Radhe Krishna,

Judas, Radhe Krishna

By the blessings of my guru, I have learnt one precious thing. That hate message can not be countered by hate messages. but by messages of love. Message of Love is a precious thing. easier said than to put it in practice.

Chaitanya mahaprabhu and the six goswami sishyas of him were embodiment of love and single minded devotion to lord. But I feel that these things are gone with them.

Although I do not belong to ISKCON, I have read many times Radha Rasa Sudanidhi, Which I learnt is penned by Hitaharivamsa and claimed by ISKCON as penned by Probodananda, a relative of gopala bhatta Goswami. While people around take interest in controversies, claims and counter claims, if at all time is spent in understanding the beauty engraved in these granthas, krishna would ever be happy.

I do not know whether the current day ISKCON people who have tall claims about Parampara et all. would have ever even heard of Shatsandarba, Brhat Bhagavatha Kathamrtham, Hari Bhakthi vilasam, Gopala Champu, Bhakthi rasamrtha sindhu,Vidagdha madhavam, lalitha Madhavam. I who keep measured distance from ISKCON have read many of these granthas and planning not to miss a single one of it. I found almost every aspect in the granthas. The magnificient handling of Deva Bhasha samskrutham, the wonderful rendering of samskrutha poetry by usage of classic vruthas like Upendra vajra, malini classic chandas like Sardhula Vikriditham and Anushtup different gadhya pryogas - all these used as Bhushana for the shringara of the Radha Krishna Yugala.
Bhakthi at the time of these great souls was a special relationship between God the paramathma and Bhaktha the jeevatma. But in the current day ISKCON, Bakthi is a ritual, a ritual which is more rigorously followed than that of execution karmas from karma kandas by a karmata Brhmana of the poorva meemamsa school.
While on one hand I am quite happy about the obsession of ISKCONites with Bhagawath gita commentary of ACB ( So am I obsessed with Shrimad Bhagavatha) - I learn from this ekagratha - I find these people totally devoid of Atmagunas which are very very badly required to even think of the sweet lord.

Radhe krishna.