Lord Krishna Forum - Krishna Talk

sridatta1 · Joined: 03 Aug 2005 Posts: 652 Location: india

Whether Devotees of ISKON are the best devotees

Those devotees are really the best cream because they have realized the concept of human incarnation which is Krishna. They are not much worried about the energetic forms like Narayana which are meaningful only with respect to the souls of the upper world. But from another angle they are in the lowest state. The practical aspect of worship is service, which alone has the divine fruit. The service requires a living being and not inert object. The living being can only receive the service rendered by you. These devotees are serving the idols and photos of Krishna which are inert. These idols and photos serve the purpose of development of theoretical devotion in yourself which is related to mind. But mere theoretical devotion without practical aspect is useless.

The theoretical devotion should result in the practical devotion and the fruit is always associated with the practical devotion only. The knowledge and devotion are like the degree and the appointment order achieved by your self. But both these cannot get you the salary unless you work in the job. The salary is given at the end of the month for the work you have done in that month.

The salary is not given to your degree or to the appointment order. The degree and the order help you to procure the work. The water and fertilizer help the plant to grow and give the fruit. The fruit is associated to the plant directly and not to the water or fertilizer. Thus, knowledge (Jnana Yoga) and devotion (Bhakti Yoga) help the achievement of the state of service (Karma Yoga). Only Karma (Work) can get the fruit directly. These devotees are not serving the present human incarnation and therefore all their service done to the statues or photos becomes waste.

Some undeserving people behind the statues or photos are benefited by such service. You can worship the devotees and preachers of this cult and in such case Krishna is more pleased. The Advaitin is wrong in extending the concept of human incarnation to every human being. In this angle the Iskcon devotee is better than Advaitin because such devotee has confined this concept to a specific human being like Krishna. But when the concept of service to God comes, the Advaitin looks better than that devotee. The Advaitin is serving himself assuming that he is God. At least the living being (Advaitin himself) is served, which really receives the service.

Lord Krishna Himself stated that He will come down whenever it is necessary (Yadayadahi….Gita). In such case, why these devotees are confining to the past Krishna only and why they are not searching for the present human incarnation? Do they accept Rama also as another incarnation of Krishna or not? They accept Rama as another human incarnation. It means more than one human incarnation of Krishna is accepted. Then, why not accept some other human incarnations especially when Krishna told that He will come again and again whenever required? In Gita, Krishna told that He should be worshipped. Since Krishna was preaching Gita to Arjuna, for Arjuna, Krishna was the human incarnation of that time. For other human beings belonging to other generations, Krishna means the human incarnation that is present in each generation.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

JK Hauraki · Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 47 Location: Melbourne

When I see the deity that is Krishna himself He is not stone but he becomes the stone, the wood specifically for the devotee. We are looking at the Lord himself when He comes as Lord Jagannatha in the Ratha Yatra. Or when the Lord comes as Nrsimha just as he appeared out of the pillar to Kill Pralada's evil father.

Devotees worship the Lord in Various expansions but Radha Krsna is so very dear. To get to the stage of directly serving the deity of Krsna is the highest perfection. And is a process to develop pure love of God eventually reaching Prema.

The International Society of Krsna Consciousness was founded by his divine grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada by the mercy of Lord Chaitanya the most recent incarnation of Lord Krishna coming as His own Devotee. Born on the eclispe appearing with the golden hue of Srimati Radharani in the late 14th century. Bringing forth Sankirtana as we know harinama today. They are all to aware of when Krishna was here on earth in His original form 5000yrs ago. Just as they know that Lord Chaitanya is His Avatar for this age.

And the only way to remove ourselves from this material world, (the Lords external energy )is to Chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna! and return home Back to Godhead. This is the easiest process to adopt for this age. Although in saying that it is not for the faint hearted.

As Prabhupada would say chant and be happy then your life will be perfect!

Hare Krishna :D

sridatta1 · Joined: 03 Aug 2005 Posts: 652 Location: india

JK Hauraki wrote: When I see the deity that is Krishna himself He is not stone but he becomes the stone, the wood specifically for the devotee. We are looking at the Lord himself when He comes as Lord Jagannatha in the Ratha Yatra. Or when the Lord comes as Nrsimha just as he appeared out of the pillar to Kill Pralada's evil father.

Devotees worship the Lord in Various expansions but Radha Krsna is so very dear. To get to the stage of directly serving the deity of Krsna is the highest perfection. And is a process to develop pure love of God eventually reaching Prema.

The International Society of Krsna Consciousness was founded by his divine grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada by the mercy of Lord Chaitanya the most recent incarnation of Lord Krishna coming as His own Devotee. Born on the eclispe appearing with the golden hue of Srimati Radharani in the late 14th century. Bringing forth Sankirtana as we know harinama today. They are all to aware of when Krishna was here on earth in His original form 5000yrs ago. Just as they know that Lord Chaitanya is His Avatar for this age.

And the only way to remove ourselves from this material world, (the Lords external energy )is to Chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna! and return home Back to Godhead. This is the easiest process to adopt for this age. Although in saying that it is not for the faint hearted.

As Prabhupada would say chant and be happy then your life will be perfect!

Hare Krishna :D

Thanks for the reply;but you shall analyse the following;

Stages in Worship of Lord

In the first stage, a servant is sitting and singing on the owner without doing any work. He is asking the remuneration for his song from the owner. The owner refuses remuneration because the singer has already got happiness by singing and that happiness itself is the remuneration. One cannot get two remunerations for single work even if you treat the singing as a work. In the second stage the servant is doing work and is also singing. The owner will pay for his work only but not for the song. The servant is singing while he is doing the work in order to get happiness to forget the tiredness in the work. Therefore, here also only the work is remunerated but not the song. In the third stage the servant is advised to stop singing because his energy is wasted in the song. If he works without singing all his energy can be concentrated in the work and the servant will get more remuneration. In this third stage it is only an advice but the servant is not blamed for singing. Singing is not wrong at all. But singing has no remuneration.

Similarly in the first stage people pray and express devotion without proving their love in action. In this stage the people are getting the peace and bliss by the prayers and expression of devotion. They cannot charge the Lord again for their prayers and devotion. In the second stage people participate in the mission of the Lord by sacrificing the work and the fruit of the work. While working for the Lord, they pray and sing devotional songs, which give them peace and happiness. Their prayers and songs are not wrong at all. But they will get the fruit from the Lord for their work only and not for their prayers (words) and for their devotion (mind).

In the third stage they are advised to stop the prayers and expression of devotion by practicing silence and control of mind. The reason for this is that they can store their energy, which is wasted in prayers, and devotion and which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. The energy wasted in these two channels can be diverted to the work only and more work can be done so that they can get a better fruit from the Lord. Ofcourse, they should not expect any fruit for their work. Then only the Lord is pleased and will give the real fruit. But if they concentrate all their energy in the work only, they can get a better real fruit from the Lord though they do not aspire for any fruit.

Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. If you control those two channels, better fruit is given to you. If you need relaxation by prayers and devotion, you will be in the second stage. Therefore there is no contradiction because in the third stage it is only an advice in the light of Yoga. Yoga means concentration of the entire energy in one channel that is useful. The root word of Yoga is “Yuj”, which means to unite the dissipated streams of energy in various useless channels and concentrate the whole energy as a single stream in the useful channel.

The third stage is the highest stage. Hanuman never uttered prayers and never expressed devotional feelings on the Lord as per the Valmiki Ramayana, which is the only authority. Hanuman concentrated all His energy in the work of Lord Rama. Lord Rama also never expressed His love through words or feelings on Hanuman. He also gave silently the highest real fruit to Hanuman, which is the post of future creator (Brahma). Veda says “Yato Vacho Nivartante Apraapya Manasaasah”. This means that the words and mind cannot touch the Lord and will return back to you only. He will never hear your prayers and will never observe your expression of devotional feelings. The reason is that they are giving you the immediate fruit, which is peace, happiness and satisfaction. It is like a self-employment scheme.

Since the fruit is immediate and automatic the Lord need not pay any attention. But when you work for Him by sacrifice, you are not getting the peace, happiness and satisfaction. When you offer the sweet to the Lord you are suffering with hunger though you may feel it as happiness. But the Lord is not a sadist. He will pay His attention to you and will give you the real fruit. Therefore in this highest stage silence and control of mind are recommended by Gita also (Mounam Atma Vinigrahah).

In the second stage by prayers and devotion, you are eating the sweet. Why should the Lord pay attention for that because you are getting the enjoyment in eating the sweet? Shall He give you the cost of the sweet to you for your eating? When you give the sweet to Him without aspiring for its cost, the Lord will be pleased for your sacrifice, which alone can prove your real love on Him and then reward you with real infinite fruit at the appropriate time and place. He will delay in giving the fruit since He wants to see you whether you have sacrificed the fruit expecting something in return.

If you have sacrificed the sweet in terms of business, you will come out with your real color in the time of delay done by the Lord. The Lord is the top most genius.

JK Hauraki · Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 47 Location: Melbourne

Hari Sridatta long time no hear.

Just a quick observation are you just copying and pasting your answers if so I would like to hear from you and what you have personally learnt on spiritual matters it is fine to quote the Spiritual master but say that you have quoted him, and then give your definintion.

As for the answer you gave. This is not devotional service you are speaking about, and Lord Krsna specifically says in Gita.

One who knows that the position reached by means of analytical study can also be attained by devotional service, and who therefore sees analytical study and devotional service to be on the same level, sees things as they are. BG ch 5 text 5

[i]Merely renouncing all activities yet not engaging in the devotional service of the Lord cannot make one happy. But a thoughtful person engaged in devotional service can achieve the Supreme without delay.BG ch 5 text 6

Those who follow this imperishable path of devotional service and who completely engage themselves with faith, making Me the supreme goal, are very very dear to Me. BG Ch 12 text 20

Finally The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.Bg Ch 12 text 2

And in my experience everything Prabhupada taught was to dovetail everything to Krsna and he reminded us, the highest perfection is devotional service, thus he established ISKCON and clarified that If we can knock out the 4 pillars of sinful activity ie, Meat eating, intoxication, illicit sex, and gambling then our sinful activity will fall away. When chanting Hare Krsna we are in direct association with the Lord.As He is non different from His names. Krsna being the Principal name. Chanting the Lords names trains our senses to become controlled and eventually stops the wandering of the mind until we become further purified and able to use this control for future devotional activities. :D