Srila Prabhupada is my Guru.
  • June 2004
    Eminent Madhva Sampradaya Scholars
    Support Srila Prabhupada's Ritvik-System
    January 28, 1999 VNN2925
    BY ISKCON BANGALORE

    BANGALORE, INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas & Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an exercise.

    We see HG Basugosh Prabhus' postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation.

    However, since the exercise has begun we find it only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue to them.

    HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars:

    'Vidyavachaspati' Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was awarded the title: 'Vidyaa-vaachaspati' by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas.

    Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami Desikachar: A broad-minded Sri Vaishnava scholar and sannyasi. He was previously a professor in National College, Bangalore. He is a Sanskrit scholar. He has disciples who come from Smaarta, Sri Vaishnava and Maadhva backgrounds.

    (for the information of the readers, these two above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG Basugosh Prabhu!)

    The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami:

    Question: According to Srila Prabhupada's letter of July 9th, 1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric principles, what is your holiness' opinion?

    HH Rangapriya Swami: It appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not in violation of any shastric principles.

    Question: Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system?

    HH Rangapriya Swami: By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him.

    Question: If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, 'Whose disciple are you?" what should they say?

    HH Rangapriya Swami: They should say, 'Srila Prabhupada is my guru.' Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority.

    Question: As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed?

    HH Rangapriya Swami: Yes, there is no problem.



    Copy of the letter given to ISKCON:

    11.1.99

    I have acquainted myself with the life and message of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of July 9th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama's padukas.

    In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue as intended by Srila Prabhupada.

    Srila Prabhupada's system accords a unique position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin, who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to Bhagavan Himself.

    The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of his message.

    The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions.

    Signed. Rangapriya Swami.

    This story URL: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2925.html






    Interview With Sri Bannanje Govindacharya

    January 28, 1999 VNN2924
    BY ISKCON BANGALORE

    BANGALORE, INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — It may be recalled that HG Vidvan Gauranga Dasa posted a report of his meeting two eminent vaishnavas in Bangalore, namely Vidyavacaspati Sri Bannaje Govindacharya (a grhasta madhva scholar). When devotees of ISKCON Bangalore showed the report to Sri Bananje Govindacharya, he said that the reporting was partial and did not completely represent his views. The devotees continued their discussion with him and it was recorded. Later the interview was transcribed, taken back to him for review so that he is satisfied that we represent his views properly this time. We provide the same here:

    Below is an interview with Sri Bannanje Govindacarya, original tape available:

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Meaning of diksha is to give adhikara in a mantra or any system or in a faith. Who can give initiation? In fact if I want to initiate somebody into gayatri, I must be a realised person. Gayatri sakshatkara is the first requirement for a diksha guru. Siddhi or perfection. Mantra siddhi. Otherwise one cannot give mantra diksha to others, according to shastra. So simply giving Diksha and canceling and taking again another diksha - that is all ashastric, not according to shastra... So this is the problem when we institutionalize a faith. We have to face all these problems, because when you institutionalize faith then all the institutional and organizational problems enter and all the organizational problems will come. Actually according to shastra, none of these swamis can initiate… No swami unless he has attained sakshatkar or mantra siddhi he cannot initiate. That is what….told was correct. Unless he has that power to take the sishya into that height, that elevation, initiation becomes a mere mechanical procedure. It has no meaning. If I want to initiate you I must be able to bring you to that plane and you must be able to meditate upon that mantra and that power should be given. Initiation is not mere mechanical procedure. That is a transformation of a power, mantric and spiritual power and a person who has actually no spiritual power how can he give spiritual power to a sisya. It cannot be claimed by a mere post or institutional powers. Initiation is totally different.

    ISKCON devotee: The point is the 11 ritviks, only on the assumption that Prabhupada is not on the planet they stopped continuing to be ritviks. Is that correct or wrong? We are saying, " you don't have an explicit order. A clear order of the acharya is needed to become a diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada made a system-you stopped the acharya's order!" We are questioning. They are not able to justify that. So are they correct in their justification or wrong?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No…do they claim that they are no more ritviks?

    ISKCON devotee: They say that they are no more ritviks. They are regular gurus. Regular gurus means, as I told you the definition, according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, it is very serious thing. It is a very big thing.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes. See that is why I have told this is clash between the organization and the spiritual practice. When the spiritual practices become institutionalized, then the institution has certain… it is totally left to the …you are correct. There is no letter or there is no resolution, any orders. In an institution anything can be changed. The governing body is there and by majority they can vote and they can have a resolution. They can change anything. According to rules and regulations. But that is left to the organizational rules and regulations.

    That is what I have told, according to shastra, the religious or spiritual part of diksha - giving diksha, a person who has siddhi - siddhapurusa can give diksha to others. Otherwise it has no meaning at all. It is not a mechanical thing.

    ISKCON devotee: So their another argument is that because it is not normal, according to tradition just like son becomes father, it is natural. So naturally disciple becomes guru. This is also natural. So we have become gurus. So if we follow ritvik, because it is non traditional, not in the sampradaya, we stopped practicing it. Is it really apasampradaya? To follow acharya's ajna?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Is it apasampradaya means here in other sampradayas, particularly in the vaishnava sampradaya or the madhva mutts, their mantra diksha is to be taken by a living guru. It is a tradition. Strictly speaking, diksha even here when a swami gives mantra or upadesha to a disciple, the inner concept is that the living guru is not the real guru. Madhvacharya is there in his body and through living guru the spirit, actually the original spirit of Madhvacharya, the original spirit of living guru that is what is functioning. That concept is there. But a diksha living guru is a must in tradition. It is there. That is why they say apasampradaya. See in all other sampradayas diksha swekara from a living guru is generally accepted in all… see it is in practice even in Madhva mutt.

    ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada appointed these ritviks to do the external aspects of the diksha, like gving mala, spiritual name, etc These are to be done through a living ritviks. So ritviks are living. But the roles are defined and the real aspect of the diksha, giving transcendental knowledge and taking the responsibility of delivering the disciple, Prabhupada continues to do it. In that sense is it apasampradaya?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No we cannot say that. Because what is sampradaya? Sampradaya is again a constitution- a spiritual institution. And it is followed by centuries and centuries by the sisyas. So any system that is in practice for more than 100 years, it becomes sampradaya!

    ISKCON devotee: Now since no acharya in the past has formed an international society…

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, that is why I have told you, sampradaya means also, it is a spiritual constitution, which should not go against the spirit of vedic teachings. That's all.

    ISKCON devotee: So is the ritvik system, taking mala, name, etc from living ritviks and considering Srila Prabhupada as the diksha guru, violating vedic spirit?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No no nothing, nothing. That is not that…

    ISKCON devotee: This ritvik system, where Prabhupada in his absence where they act, you know these ritviks as his representatives, and giving, conducting this ceremony while still Prabhupada as the diksha guru, if this process if we continue, is it violating any vedic sastra?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You see it can be done like this. Everybody must take diksha before the vigraha of Prabhupada.

    ISKCON devotee: Prabhupada murthi's are kept everywhere in ISKCON temples.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You have a temple of Prabhupada, and before Prabhupada himself, no others can give diksha and these people provide name and mala. The diksha should be in the presence of Prabhupada's vigraha. That will be better. That would be better. There will be no problem. Just to avoid problems, see so many gurus, they will leave peeta (the sacred seat), they are falling down. Just to avoid this, you take initiation before Prabhupada's vigraha.

    ISKCON devotee: We are actually not saying that this should be practiced because of a reaction for the fall down of gurus. Even if the gurus are not falling down we are saying you should still follow this because it is the acharya's ajna.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, I have simply told… This can also be avoided. No, that is not the only reason because in fact that is my concept. People ask me who is your guru. I have been taught by so many swamji's . I have not been initiated into sanyasa. That is different. People ask me, "You are being an eminent scholar, who is your guru." Then I used to say, "Madhvacharya is my guru. None else." I don't accept anybody else as my direct guru. Even now if I have got any doubt, I put the question before Madhvacharya and he must send the message, the answer to my mind and I don't ask anybody! So this is a very powerful practice. Taking initiation from mula guru. See these people are instruments, to provide this and that, what ever is required.

    ISKCON devotee: For that we are saying, we will respect them and …

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: If that vision is created, it will be a very powerful, very good system. There will be no controversy. All the problems will be avoided.

    ISKCON devotee: Will this stop the parampara? They claim that this will stop the parampara.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Why? Taking initiation from mula guru and following the parampara. How can it be stopped?

    ISKCON devotee: This is one of their objections. You can't take from a departed acharya because it will stop the parampara. So who will continue the parampara? That is what they are asking.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: See Guru parampara means, now here is Madhvacharya, (pointing to the disciplic succession listed in Bhagavad Gita As It Is) and then this swami, and his swami, like that 31 swamis are there. So this parampara will be there. Everybody is disciple of guru, Prabhupada. Prabhupada and his disciple, his disciple, his disciple - this parampara will not be there. That is alright.

    ISKCON devotee: That is what Pejavar Swami said, "Peeta parampara (the succession of the sacred seat of the institutional head) will not be there. But upadesha parampara will continuue…"


    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: There is no problem in that. It is there in practice in Madhva mathas because the guru initiates the disciple. When that tradition is not there, Prabhupada himself is the initiating or diksha guru, then his matha parampara will not be there.

    ISKCON devotee: But will that not stop the parampara?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No, no how. No question of stopping. Parampara does not stop. All this in an institution, all seniority, junior swamis, who is to become President, something, this and that. All those problems will arise. Managerial problems and institutional problems may be there but in spiritual practice there is no problem. Here there are two aspects. One is external - institutional, managerial problems. When you build an institution, there should be some constitution, some managerial….

    ISKCON devotee: That Prabhupada has said GBC is the ultimate managing authority…

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: And this should not be mixed up with the spiritual practices. It is different.

    ISKCON devotee: Now they show the principle, they quote, many places where Prabhupada expressed himself, "I want each of my disciples to become gurus."

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Anybody can become guru. He can teach vaishnava siddhanta to the masses and he can become guru. To become guru… Giving diksha is not the only method of becoming guru. If I want to become guru, I must teach my disciples and I am guru. My students are there. They give respect to me. They say he is my guru. He taught me this omkar. That is all. Without knowing … Guruhood should come through his knowledge and his practice…..I mean tapasya. It cannot be demanded.

    ISKCON devotee: In other words siksha. You can always be siksha guru.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: I can teach others. But diksha guru….well, unless I have that power I cannot give diksha to others. So again how can I claim that I have that power. "You don't have that power. I will give you that power…" It is all again a controversy. There is no end to this controversy.

    ISKCON devotee: According to Madhva siddhanta, can a mahabhagavatha fall down? Uttam adhikari, mahabhagavatha?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: The question is irrelevant. Because if he is a mahabhagavatha, he cannot fall. If he falls down he is not a mahabhagavatha. What is the definition of mahabhagavatha? First we have to know that. According to the Bhagavata purana, a person who has practiced the vaishnava system according to Maha Srimad Bhagavatha and has reached certain level. Then if he is mahabhagavatha, he cannot come down. He cannot fall down. Sometimes it happens, even realised souls have prarabhdha karma. That is also told. Even the realised souls who have seen Narayana face to face, eye to eye, Vishnu sakshat kara is there, after realisation also due to prarabdha karma also some people may fall down. That is there in the scriptures.

    Generally mahabhagavatha cannot fall down -

    Its very rare - some earth breaking instances -

    You leave it, it's only for argument sake.

    Devotee: Do you agree that one can become guru only on the order of his guru? Or can he just become guru? How can he become guru? - giving diksha. Prabhupada says that it is a rule that he has to get an order to continue the parampara. What do you say?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Through guru parampara giving initiation is in practice in so many systems. In Madhva system it is there, in Shankara and Ramanuja system. In all the systems now the person who is authorised to give initiation comes in the peeta (sacred seat of the institutional head). Whoever comes in the peeta is authorised to give. That tradition is there now. And in fact, this is just a managerial system, administrative system. Just to solve the administrative problem, they have adopted this method. Strictly speaking, in the spiritual field anybody can initiate who is siddha purusha and even if not entitled by guru. Traditionally this is not accepted. If I am a mantra siddha, I need not have a sanction from my guru or any tradition. I can initiate anybody. This is sastric. But there are two things - institutional systems is that only the peeta-adhipati (the person presiding over the peeta) guru can initiate. That is the system in the Madhva mutts. In fact only siddha purusa can initiate and he need not be a siddha purusa who has come in the traditional way in the peeta.

    ISKCON devotee: But he has to be authorised.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: He is authorised.

    ISKCON devotee: If he is a siddha purusa, automatically the authorisation will be there for him.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, yes. That's what I am saying. If he is not siddha purusa, though he is there in the peeta, lineage, according to sastra he is not authorised. But the present system accepts that he is guru! But according to the sastra, he need not come in the peeta, if he is a siddha purusa and he is realised, he can give diksha to anyone. There is no sanction of tradition that is necessary to accept him as guru. The only requirement for diksha is I must be a realised person, siddha purusa of that mantra which I am giving you. If it is Vishnu mantra, I must be siddha in that Vishnu mantra or Narayana mantra or whatever it is. This is not only giving mantra upadesa but this is accepting somebody into the fold of a certain system. Then some system must be there. Its again institutionalisation. Some system. Then whatever the tradition says that is to be accepted to accept him into this fold. So all the other sampradayas accept that there is a guru paramapara in the peetas and they are entitled to give diksha. According to sastra anybody can give mudra dharana. I can give mudra to my children. But according to the present practice in the mutts, sampradaya system, they do not accept it. They say, "Only we have the authority. Only we have the authority. We can give mudra dharana. But nobody else…" Some of our swamis say, "These people belong to Uttaradi mutt, they belong to Pejawar mutt.." and so on. Again there is division. "And you cannot take vaishnava diksha from some other swami. I am your mula vidya guru. You take diksha from me." No it has become a social right. Spirituality has nothing to do with this. This is again the present plight of the muttas. There are two things. One is the social aspect of traditional acceptance, another is spiritual practice.

    ISKCON devotee:That's interesting. So we understand that the spiritual component of diksha Prabhupada retains for himself.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes that is what I am saying. It is safe. If we accept the spiritual diksha is Prabhupada, if we accept that then so many problems will be solved.

    ISKCON devotee: According to our Governing Body themselves, they agree that they cannot deliver the souls back to Krishna. It is Prabhupada only that much they agree. The only thing is they don't want to give Prabhupada the post of diksha guru. Of course now the siddhanta is diluted so much because of the lack of qualified diksha gurus that they are saying that even a kanistha adhikari or madhyama adhikari can become guru. But Prabhupada cannot become diksha guru. His only disqualification is that he is not present with us.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: In other sampradayas they say that only living guru can give diksha. Therefore they are also claiming the same thing. In other sampradayas the diksha guru must be a living guru. He cannot give diksha with his spiritual body, non material body. He must give with his gross material body only - that tradition is there. This is not siddhanta or apasiddhanta. Tradition is a social system. It is nothing to do with the spiritual. Society accepted this just to have a control on disciples from the peeta or matha. Swami should have certain control of the disciples. So they have accepted certain rights - they are his copyrights! So that he can have certain control over the society. This is a social system presently accepted by the spiritual priests. Philosophy and practice have nothing to do with it.

    ISKCON devotee: I cannot claim to become regular guru - for that I have to provide evidence. These are the only two questions we are asking them.

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Spiritually you are correct. For the organizational system if there is any thing to be done, that is left to you. I don't know. If there is any social problem it has to be set right.

    ISKCON devotee: In short, is the ritvik system against any vedic system?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: It is neither vedic nor non vedic. Just to have an international contact, Prabhupada himself created this system and he is the final authority. It is not against the preaching of the vedas.

    ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada can remain a diksha guru and these people can conduct just like the ritviks?

    Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: That can be done. There is no problem in this system. Because it is an international institution it is natural that all the people may not be scholars in sastras or sanskrit. But they will be managerial heads. That is why it is inevitable to accept Prabhupada as diksha guru. It is essential thing to accept him as diksha guru and these are the instruments.


    This story URL: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2924.html
  • June 2004
    Don't tell anyone from iskCON that Srila Prabhupada is your guru as they will most likely threaten you with physical violence. The unauthorized bogus gurus of iskCON are actually disciples of Kali-yuga not disciples of Prabhupada.
  • June 2004
    Yes, they have been well-known to physically threaten and push devotees out of Srila Prabhupada's temples for proclaiming Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master.


    krishnamonk:

    Don't tell anyone from iskCON that Srila Prabhupada is your guru as they will most likely threaten you with physical violence. The unauthorized bogus gurus of iskCON are actually disciples of Kali-yuga not disciples of Prabhupada.
  • June 2004

    krishnamonk:

    Don't tell anyone from iskCON that Srila Prabhupada is your guru as they will most likely threaten you with physical violence. The unauthorized bogus gurus of iskCON are actually disciples of Kali-yuga not disciples of Prabhupada.
    I am afraid to say it has already happened ,as you know when anyone shows some kind of devotional service in ISKCON Temples the unsuspecting devotee is pounced upon to declare who their Guru is,I was asked and I spoke the most hurtfull name to them, Srila Prabhupada,how can that be they shout ,you have never met Him. I said to them who is that,is it not Srila Prabhupada sitting there keeping a watchfull eye. well the atmosphere turned stone cold and a few weeks latter I was offered a choice ,their guru or leave,so I left. However I did not lose anything from their lack of assocation as I have obtained a few of Srila Prabhupada's murti's and now I have the assocation of a Pure Devotee in my home,and of course His orignal books and lectures and videos. I could not be happier.
  • June 2004
    "Yes, :D we should all worship Prabhupada." And in 1979 when I said that, the GBC (and Danavir and Vipramukhya et al.) said they wanted me (and/or my kids) to worship Jayatirtha instead of Prabhupada :twisted: . They said the reason that Jayatirtha is a guru is that he is "living." I said, yes but he is living along with smoking pot, taking LSD, and having sex with followers? And they said who cares, worship him or get out. So, I got out. So they might know "where" their guru is, he is out there smoking pot, and that is fine for the GBC. So they worship pot, illicit sex, and so on. I said better to worship the dog accross the street from the temple because he is not taking drugs, and still to this day they cannot argue with this point. More people are agreeing with us as we see below: :roll:

    Dear folks, PAMMHO AGTSP,

    Let us know if you wish to add other addresses or cancel your subscription. PADA also may or may not endorse any of the statements found in our featured letters. ALSO the names of the GBC as well as accounts of their activities are sometimes unverified at this point, we are merely
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    ===========================
    Newsbytes
    1) Ooooh, sex! (Danavir v. pada)
    2) WHERE IS PADA'S BIG SEAT? (Mukunda v. pada)
    3) Jagajivan prabhu's suicide (by pada)
    4) NM/ SDG (by pada)
    5) ANANDA V. DEEPAK (by Deepak)
    6) Letter From/To Satsvarupa das (by BIF)
    7) Denial by Rowland Cheatham Posted June 9, 2004
    8) Iskcon Chapter 11 - Change Of Address (Gupta dasa)
    9) The Midlife Crisis of ISKCON by Sacitananda dasi
    10) Rukmini dd says: iskCON is crumbling away as we speak
    11) GOD IS AN IDOL! (by William Zodda aka parampara member Gaurahari)
    ================

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    POISON SOUNDS: http://spbooks.org/sp/tome/
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    ARTWORK http://www.saradiya.com (Saradiya Dasi, artwork site of an early disciple of Srila Prabhupada.)
    GURUKULA LAWSUIT http://surrealist.org/gurukula/lawsuit.html
    POISON TAPE AUDIO: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933
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    Pratyatosa Dasa (http://pratyatosa.com/ - http://llbest.com/)
    GURU BUSINESS (by Sulochana dasa): http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933/guru_biz.htm
    ISKCON San Antonio Texas, [email]info@iskconsanantonio.com[/email]

    ================

    Newsbytes

    * BIF UPDATE: Dear Sir/Madam, Prabhus, please go to ... www.B-I-F.com for a free download of our ebooks- "Someone Has Poisoned Me" (SHPM), and "Judge For Yourself" (JFY). Soon we will post the book- "Guru Business," for which its author was murdered. His assassins (an ISKCON corporate-appointed-guru and his henchman), are currently serving sentences in US penitentiaries. Thank You, and sorry for the intrusion. "TRUTH is above all religion"- Mahatama Gandhi. In the service of TRUTH. YS Bhaktivedanta Investigation Force (BIF)

    *Harikesha's new web site: http://www.earthfuture.se/proposal.php (will future earth have bogus gurus?)
    Harikesha's Riviera property?: http://www.french-property.com/properties/property_detail/cid/83/pid/7806/tid/2
    It is so bizzare to see these 'one time devotees/Gaudiya Vaishnavas' get involved in such watered-down jnana/ advaita/ rajneeshie/ westernized/ whimpy airy fairyizim! All these dudes loose their 'Passion' when they fall away from the path of 'Bhakti'. They become noodles in their 'jnana/advaita/whimpyness' ys, jijaji

    * From Prasadam das: Harikesha is living here in Florida and attends the programs. He is a wonderful devotee. Krishna has cleaned his heart.
    [PADA: This is always the case, he cleans out ISKCON's safe, grabs a young woman, and now his heart is clean. fer sure ys pd]

    * coco says: sannyas in kali/ nuttin but folly

    =================

    1) Ooooh, sex! (Danavir v. pada)

    PADA editor entered a "devotee discussion site" and encountered some of (ISKCON's guru) Danavir's disciples. We pointed out that the GBC's policy of "illicit sex: equals guru" created mass molesting of children, the murder of Jayatirtha, and so on. And they replied, so what! "Ooooh, sex and guru, very funny." Danavir's crew merely repeats what their actual guru, Kirtanananda, told Kanka dd. When she told Kirtanananda that the children were getting molested in New Vrindavana he replied, so what, "sex is sex." Danavir's ditto reply: "Ooooh sex." Yes, these rascals think, so what, mass child molesting, dissenter's murders and so on, these are some kind of funny comedy laughs for these jokers. Fine, they are in for some big comedy show when the go to Yamaraja, let us see if they are still laughing then. Srila Prabhupada also says these rascals who think the guru is fallen are "narakah sah," residents of hell. ys pada

    ===================

    2) WHERE IS PADA'S "BIG SEAT"?

    Sanat and Mukunda and similar pin-heads often predict, "After the Turley case is settled, the PADA editor will then be sitting in the highest seat, as Tamal's replacement and ISKCON's next leader." Well dudes, the case is settled already. It is not even going to court. Yet PADA's editor is -- not sitting -- in a bigger seat? We merely have the same old over-stuffed green pillow chair. Where is our "highest seat of honor in Tamal's seat" -- as you fellows "mystically predicted" about a zillion times? Sorry, your argument was, and is, a show-bottle bluff to divert from the real issue, that ISKCON's children were victimized and they needed justice. Unfortunately, even in the so-called ritvik camp there is sometimes "envy over big seats," never mind there is -- no -- big seat. Sanat says, "PADA has to give me more credit (i.e. where is my big seat)." That means some fools are envious of some green sofa chair, and really more to the point: envious of the children. "Who will benefit from the children's suffering -- with this seat or that seat." As such, they are seat-ophiles. PADA does not want "a seat of honor" -- at the expense of the children's suffering -- like you pathetic ding-bats. This is yet another example of where we wanted to "cooperate with other devotees," but they cannot, since they are raging with greed over our -- stuffed pillow seat, worth about $3 at the flea market. thanks pd

    ===============

    3) Jagajivan prabhu's suicide.

    It appears that our friend Jagajivana (Joeseph Gallagher) has commited suicide near Alachua Florida. We are sorry for not posting his story earlier, but we were waiting for the details, or a message about his passing away funeral ceremony, but apparently there are none forthcoming. Jagajivan was very helpful in pushing forward our "Prabhupada is the diksha guru" idea and he helped edit some of our earlier documents in the 1980s. In any event, we see his untimely demise as yet another victimization by the GBC. Lord Chaitanya says that it is better to live in a cage with a tiger -- than to live outside the association of devotees, since devotees need association to develop their Krishna consciousness. "Sangat sanjayate kama: one's desires and ambitions develop according to the company one keeps." (BG) As such, the GBC's policy of purging out almost all of the devotees back into the material ocean has had devastating consequences for most devotees including: depression, illness, and suicides. We also feel there is a paralell track: the current "devotee plague of cancer." Is this perhaps another "masked symptom of" -- or a slower form of -- suicide, since cancer and suicide are mainly the results of depression -- at least for devotees? Devotees of God should not be leaving their bodies at around the age of fifty. That is simply "not normal." Also, there are certain cases where it seems Krishna has given some of His sweet and dear devotees an illness as "a ticket out of here," like Jaya Radhe and Jayananda, for their progress, while there is another class of illness -- caused by depression and so on. They ARE different cases.

    Unfortunately, we also feel that Prabhupada's "poison case" is connected to the "devotee depression cases" as well. It seems possible to us that there is some carry-over or residual "reaction" being absorbed or felt, even sub-consciously, by some of us devotees. Hence, all the more reason the poison case should be confronted and addressed forthwith, both individually or collectively, to uplift the devotees at large. This issue no doubt acts like a draining weight on the mind's of some of our devotees, again, even unconsciously. And just as ISKCON's development is hampered due to this issue, at least according to some of its leaders, the refugee devotees are also hampered in certain respects as a result of this issue. Of course "depression" exists nowadays apparently on every level, in ISKCON's gurus, as well as within some of the refugees. For example a PADA friendly woman devotee living in an ISKCON temple began crying to us on the phone a few weeks ago saying, "Everyone in this temple is soooo fried and depressed." No kidding! "My guru is a pill popping psychopath who is chasing a married woman's skirts, so, ... why am I depressed"? Sheesh! Whereas the GBC, Gaura Govinda, Sridhara and Narayana maharaja say, "wait and see" while your guru goes into the tank, into a drug and illicit sex tailspin. Yep let's all "wait," maybe he will get a few dissenters murdered if we "wait" and this will make things better. Yas thinks! This is more depression / upon depression, compounding the depression!

    Yet all of these "troubles" are rooted in a backlash to the vicious GBC purge policy which makes the poor devotees feel frustrated and depressed. Generally, most devotees need regular DAILY kirtans, japa sessions, hari-nama programs, preaching programs, feasts and festivals, regulated temple programs, deity worship and so on to keep up their enthusiasm and devotional standards. "My dear child, continue dancing, chanting and performing samkirtana in the association of devotees." (Cc adi 7.92) This was (and still is) Prabhupada's plan for his devotees. He wanted and ordered the devotees to be full-time engaged -- "24/7" -- in devotional activities in his temples, so that they would have "superior engagements." Thus they could "give up the lower taste by experiencing the higher taste." Now, one current rumor is that Jagajivan was having "troubles" with inability to follow the regulations. If so, then no kidding Sherlock. Devotees are supposed to be in Prabhupada's temples, not scattered hither and thither -- who knows where. And if possible they should be FULL TIME, fully engaged, in service in the association of devotees. "Bhakta sane vasa." This keeps them on the spiritual plane. Yet since there are no temples nowadays for MOST of us, we have to pray: "Krishna help us 24/7, do not forget us ISKCON shipwreck victims. We need Your double-special mercy life-saving ship wreck package over here, and Dear Sir ... this is a 24/7 problem for us." And since Krishna is so very kind to His devotees, we will get that -- if we are persistent -- and sincere. As Prabhupada says, Krishna will bless the preacher and shake his hands, so Krishna is ready to shake our hands, if we approach Him in the right spirit. "Knock and Ye shall enter."

    Yet, not all of us are able to do that in short order. For example, when Tribhuvaneshvari dd told us she had "lost her will to live," she said it was all because she was separated (by GBC policy) from her service to the deity. This is what made her so depressed and so she got cancer and died. Of course even the greatest devotees sometimes leave their bodies when separated from their service, for example when the gopis were stopped from going to see Krishna, some of them also left their bodies. Haridasa also took his life when he fell from sannyasa. So there are some examples of this, but generally this policy is not recommended especially for the mass of devotees. At the same time PADA recongizes that the conditions created by the GBC are so severe that the subsequent depression is widespread -- apparently -- even in a larger segment of devotees. And this is causing troubles all round. And now that more and more of the original (1970s) devotees are getting older, and they feel they have no shelter, no temples, and in some cases no medical care/ insurance and so on, there will possibly be more of these "suicide incidents" -- or so it would seem to us. Some ex-gurukulis also recently commented that they too would offer NO help for the aging adults, rather they would "send their elders to gurukula." So there is not much sympathy from the younger (second wave) devotees (such as the ex-gurukulis) towards the first, and with good reason. So this is another aspect of the GBC's failure, the GBC largely alienated the second wave into having no sympathy for the first. We are not sure how this problem can be addressed, or even if it can be addressed separately since it is a byproduct of the overall GBC imbroglio.

    Personally, we take shelter of the idea that, "None should lament the living or the dead." We can only go on with our own vision of things, and that is, we should go on serving our MASTERS, namely Krishna and Prabhupada, whatever our circumstances. And we will be blessed by Krishna. Srila Prabhupada says there are no material impediments to love of God, and this makes sense to us. Krishna is in the heart, and if we try to love and serve Him, He can guide us to Him. We should also try to preach in whatever way we can and help people advance in Krishna consciousness, and Krishna will help us for sure. We also feel that due to the extraordinary circumstances created by the GBC's purge/ usurping, that even if some devotees get depressed and so on, and even if this leads to some of them being overwhelmed by drugs etc., as some have, Krishna will understand that and the poor victimized devotees will still get blessings from the Lord. Yet NOTICE, we should be careful not take advantage of this, and become servants of drugs (etc.) on the plea that we have been "forced" by GBC victimization. This is where the Bhagavat Gita verse applies, "a devotee might act in an abominable manner, but he is still considered as saintly."

    At the same time, no question about it, the GBC's who created these horrible sufferings for Krishna's devotees will be placed on Krishna's PERSONAL black-ball list -- for the duration. One just does not want to be on that list, since it means one will be in severe darkness/ alternating with infernal fire/ till kingdom come, and way past that even. Krishna will be very angry at these people for oppressing and harassing HIS devotees. Srila Prabhupada himself says that the Gaudiya Matha's bogus gurus also gave him "depression, repression, oppression" -- what to speak of us weaker tea devotees. Therefore, Krishna's flock of "Prabhupada faithful," albeit scattered sheep, even those of us who fell off the cliff, we will be picked up and hugged by the Lord. And if some devotees have commited suicide, either by cancer or directly, there is more blame on their oppressors than the victimized devotees themselves. That is the PADA view at least, thanks pd


    ==========================

    4) NM/ SDG

    One of Satsvarupa's disciples was "re-initiated" BV Narayan Maharaja of Mathura, but NM says that "out of respect for SDG I will not change your name since SDG is still very close to me." Told ya. Narayana Maharaja admits that he has no respect for Srila Prabhupada, because he DOES change the names of Prabhupada's devotees when he "re-initiates" them. Notice also that SDG, the person who admits he "innovated" the zonal gurus, homosexual pedophile gurus, and numerous other deviations is "close" to and respected by Narayana Maharaja (NM). Once NM finds a person like SDG who helps his New York City/ Mott Street homosexual pals into the seat of "Krishna's successors" NM falls of his seat and thinks he has met the next Jesus re-incarnated "guru." Of course, SDG was always Tamal's bucket boy, you know, the prime suspect in the poisoning of Prabhupada: That is why they are loved by NM. All this is "very dear" to NM and he spent 20 years propping them up. In fact, NM ordered Jadurani to post a letter of gratitude to Tamal after he departed (hit in the face with a 50 ton truck). "We NM folks LOVE the people who say, 'the poison is going down,' in Prabhupada's room." By the way, Tamal also lectured that people who die in car crashes are "being punished by Krishna," and again, NM loves people who are, by their own words, being punished by Krishna.

    The founder fathers of vicious purges of devotees, including the vicious beating of Jadurani, are very dear to NM. He admits he loves people who force children to worship his homosexual pedophile gurus, and who beat up teeny women who protest, and break their bones. NM loves people like SDG because he kicks out all the cowherd helpers so the Gita Nagari -- so the cows freeze to death. NM says he still loves devotee beaters, devotee killers, devotee child torturers, and cow torturers and killers, and guru poisoners. These people are very dear to NM. Yes, when NM sees a nice homosexual pedophile guru supporter who says child sex fiends are "like Jesus" he weeps tears of joy finding his soul-mate. Thus, NM says in his "Guru Tattva" booklet that there is "nothing wrong" with homosexual gurus, since he agrees with these deviants.
    Thanks pd

    =======================

    5) ANANDA V. DEEPAK

    [PADA: Ananda das has said that Prabhupada is an ordinary man, subject to darkness. And Prabhupada is ordinary since he "belches." Well, Krishna's friends also make belching noises, so according to Ananda, the residents of the spiritual sky are all "ordinary men"? Worse, Ananda has all along defended Tamal, the GBC, the Gaudiya Matha and the whole rogue's gallery of false gurus. Why is he allowed to post his rubbish on CHAKRA? It is said that Lord Balarama sometimes gets intoxicated drinking a type of beverage, so, that makes Him an ordinary street drunk? These people have no sense and they are maha-aparadhis. The good news is that the GBC aparadhis are more and more taking off their gloves and admitting they think Prabhupada is ordinary man, like their hokey gurus. We said this all along, for them to place homosexual pedophiles as "Krishna's successors" means -- they actually dislike Krishna and they think God is WORSE than an ordinary man. God is more Satanic than the ordinary man, at least according the the GBC, Sridhara, Narayana, BV and BP Puri school of thought. No wonder shastra says these veda vada rata are worse than the ordinary man, and they go to lower regions of hell than the ordinary man. ys pd]

    The spiritual master is never ordinary
    by Deepak Vohra Posted June 2, 2004

    Ananda das ("Only the unattainable guru makes no mistakes," posted May 29) claims he is a "longtime disciple of His Divine Grace" Srila Prabhupda. Yet he dares to "take issue with those who claim Srila Prabhupada to have been perfect, free of error, or unable to fall into darkness." He reiterates this shocking statement by stating that Srila Prabhupada "perpetuated false myths", and emphasising that Srila Prabhupada is just like any ordinary human being.

    What faith Ananda das must have in the sastra which clearly states: "One should consider the acarya to be as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In spite of all these instructions, if one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed. His study of the Vedas and his austerities and penances for enlightenment are all useless, like the bathing of an elephant. . . . One may argue by saying that since the spiritual master's relatives and the men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple who considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being? This will be answered in the next verse, but the injunction is that the spiritual master should never be considered an ordinary man." (Bhag. 7.15.26, purport)

    "The spiritual master is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore one who is very serious about spiritual advancement must regard the spiritual master in this way. Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities." (Bhag. 7.15.27, purport)

    "Similarly, Narada Muni, in his transcendental position, stayed with the young woman without fear of deviation. Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih)." (Bhag. 7.7.14, purport)

    "At the present moment it has become fashionable to disobey the unimpeachable directions given by the acaryas and liberated souls of the past. Presently people are so fallen that they cannot distinguish between a liberated soul and a conditioned soul. A conditioned soul is hampered by four defects: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. Consequently we have to take direction from liberated persons." (Bhag. 4.18.5, purport)

    Srila Prabhupada states: "In the Gaudiya-sampradaya there is a Vedanta commentary called the Govinda-bhasya, but the sahajiyas consider such commentaries to be untouchable philosophical speculation, and they consider the acaryas to be mixed devotees. Thus they clear their way to hell." (Cc Adi 7.72, purport)

    Yet Ananda das has the audacity to claim that "Nor was Srila Prabhupada beyond the sway of darkness." Welcome to hell.

    =======================

    6) Letter From/To Satsvarupa das (BIF)

    >>There has been gathering exposure that I, Satsvarupa Maharaja, and a female therapist had a short-lived romantic involvement about one and a half years ago. <<<br />
    * We notice that you have dropped the 'Goswami' from your title. Is it because you finally admit to the farce, or is it simply a temporary measure to suit the occasion and not bring undue attention to the lie? However, and in spite of the facts, you persist in the 'Maharaja' title, which tells us that the latter is more likely, and that you intend to leach out an existence until death, no matter what.

    You buried the "romantic involvement" within your heart for one and a half years without telling a soul. Your admission has been prompted by exposure, not conscience. Ergo, we cannot be sure whether your "involvement" was short lived or extended, or whether in fact it was the only one. Further, the female therapist you refer to is a devotee whose marriage break-up was a direct result of your intervention. This leaves your involvement with her, and your prostituting of power, beyond any acceptable explanation you can provide. Under the circumstances, any half-decent leader would declare himself unworthy of support, and resign his fate to God's will. But it appears from your letter below, that your hands have grown soft with easy money just as your heart has hardened with hidden secrets.

    >>As many of you may know, I have tried many therapies over the years to try and cure what is a severe case of "anxiety disorder anticipatory migraine." <<<br />
    * What we do know, is that you and your confederacy provided no medical expertise for His Divine Grace when he most needed it. Your neglect towards him, along with that of the other "inheritors", have been documented in the report - "Judge for Yourself", available on www.B-I-F.com

    >>In one such effort a Godsister was helping me as a counselor, and regrettably I held sessions alone with her. And so the relationship developed.<<<br />
    * This is the same Godsister whose separation you engineered. So the subtle guidelines for 'romantic involvement' were already established, otherwise why would you advise separation among your Godsiblings. It is none of your business. Further, from what we know, the Godsister was not residing with you in Ireland. She came there to join you. Which means that you, a sannyasi, maintained communications with her, and asked her to come to you, a guru, and council you. Then you proceeded to hold private meetings with her. Now you expect us to believe that the 'sessions' are regrettable, and that the relationship developed spontaneously. Which, whether true or not, exposes you as a weak personality, and your persistence in carrying on this charade to avail yourself of continued support by hand outs, further enforces that belief.

    >>I certainly committed a mistake, and I felt relieved when I wrote a letter of confession to the ISKCON sannyasa minister.<< <br />
    * Again, permit us the liberty of reminding you that your "confession" was no more spontaneous than your romantic interlude. It came only after you were exposed for inappropriate behaviour; behaviour that is unbecoming a man of your age, what to speak of a guru. Although your confession may give you relief, it does nothing for others except raise the question of resignation from your asrama, which is the apropos of a fallen sannyas who has no gumption to take his fall down to a level demanded by Vaisnavism.

    >>He asked me if she and I had sexual intercourse, and I honestly said "no."<

    * So you had a fall down that did not include the usual 'sexual intercourse'. Are we expected to rejoice in this confession, or does it raise questions of perversion - fellatio, undinism, bondage, domination, masochism etc.? Or did you simply strip and hop around the room singing - we are only playing leapfrog?

    >>Krsna saved us from that.<< <br />
    * Sri Krishna saved you from nothing. Nonsense. He has exposed you as a fake, like He has done with the others before you.

    >>I feel like I want to explain what steps I've taken to protect myself from further problems.<< <br />
    * After three decades of holding a danda, giving diksha, and at your age, a simple look in the mirror should reflect sexual impotency. Why are you seeking protection now? Better you settle down with your devotee councillor or consider castration. Other than this, there is no honest solution to your problem.

    >>The saying "once burnt, twice shy" certainly applies to me.<< <br />
    * A burnt guru, like anything else, loses its taste.

    >>In addition to any consequences endorsed by the GBC, I feel great personal shame.<<<br />
    * The consequences endorsed by the GBC is in keeping with its desperation to hold icons in place. With the fall of "appointed gurus" proving to be an eleven-ring-circus, the GBC will do/say anything to keep ISKCON's accumulation - thru- expansion program subdued and profitable. But this is not about the GBC, it's about a person who needs intimate companionship; a person who needs to be honest to himself and the discarded woman he involved in this scandal; a woman who must now live with the stigma of pulling down a guru. And this is the bottom line.

    >>On the other hand, this has increased my intimacy with Krsna in prayer.<<<br />
    * This makes good reading. However, if there was any intimacy with Krishna in the first place the fall down would not have occurred. So what do you mean by "increased intimacy"? You developed intimacy with a woman in a few sessions of counselling (by your own confession), yet after thirty years of being a sannyas/guru your vows of dedication were tested and broken. And, if we are to believe your admission noted further below ("a 64-year-old sannyasi who had no other brush with a woman") then you crumbled with the first brush. Now, we understand that your flowery language is being used to grow mushrooms, but it would be more believable if you accepted what is obvious, in spite of the GBC, and take a secure road back to Krishna.

    >>I know, for example, that a sannyasi should never be alone with a woman.<< <br />
    * We learnt this on our first day as brahmacaris. But when we discovered that total abstinence was affecting our meditations, as it is yours, we bowed our heads in acceptance. Your situation is that you are a corporate icon, ergo your honesty will be necessary for your own survival above that of corporate concerns, or Sri Maya Devi will dance you like a puppet on a string, as she is doing already.

    >>I am suffering third-degree burns by disobeying this simple first instruction for sannyasis.<<<br />
    * If you choose to persist in this charade you will become Maya Devi's metallic puppet, so the burns wont show. But like a Tin Man on the yellow brick road, you will remain heartless until Dorothy helps you find a way to your feelings.

    >>I'm determined to never make that same mistake again.<< <br />
    * What mistake? Your fall down was orchestrated and covered up by you for over one and a half years (at least). Your "mistake" was to endorse the lie that Srila Prabhupada appointed eleven gurus; a lie that you helped orchestrate, and remains covered for twenty seven years. Herein lies the cause of your fall down and that of the others. There will be no peace for you or the ISKCON ship as long as the lie remains in your heart. This is the only confession that will sit comfortable in the hole the GBC will dig for you in Mayapur. Otherwise your mausoleum will join the landmarks of deceit. Our children will make sure of it.

    >>I am praying constantly to Prabhupada and associating with my Godbrothers in a humble mood.<<<br />
    * The truth is, every time you half-baked babajis hit the skids you talk of praying to Srila Prabhupada. Other than that he is simply a shingle for ISKCON's money collecting schemes. When Srila Prabhupada said that he was being poisoned none of you "inheritors" informed law enforcement or demanded pathological tests. Your only interest was in "dividing the pie". Now you talk about praying to him constantly as if that is sufficient penance for your nonsense. You are not a member of the Catholic laity. This is Vaisnavism, and you have claimed to be an authorised diksa acarya in the line of parampara. Not as a representative of the acarya, but as a self-effulgent, self-realised soul who can by his purity burn away the sins of the world. You have been rewarded financially and emotionally for years because of it. All this began when you along with Tamal Krishna et al, declared that Srila Prabhupada had appointed you gurus. But you have all proved to be less-than-average Joes. So the question must be asked again - Did Srila Prabhupada annoint/ appoint you Joeys as diksa gurus, or did you guys silence him with poison and proclaim yourselves acaryas?

    >>My health is not good, but I don't wish to dwell on it here.<< <br />
    * And soon you will be as dead as a dodo, but this episode will live on thru your books. When an action is once done, it is right or wrong for ever; no accidental failure of its good or evil fruits can possibly alter that.

    >>I'm under the care of an expert psychiatrist MD and an authorized counsellor who is helping me with my anxiety issues.<< <br />
    * It is a pity that you have not placed you life in the hands of a kaviraja. If you can remember, that is what you 'inheritors' did to Srila Prabhupada. But now you, just like TKG, are seeking out the best you can get for your ailments and comfort.

    >>I consider my status to be semi-retired.<<<br />
    * Your status right now is that you are another fallen guru; just another one of eleven green bottles. It simply takes a little longer for mushrooms to hear the crash, but they will.

    >>I will not be initiating any new devotees.<< <br />
    * You must mean ...no more mushroom soup. Thank God for that.

    >>I am serving the devotee community by writing books and also answering letters.<< <br />
    * We read Prabhupada's books. Our spiritual survival is too important to spend time with your drug induced rantings. You speak of humility in one sentence and betray your superiority complex in the next. It appears that reality is quickly slipping from your grasp. Your penchant for karmi music, twisted art, mind altering drugs and weird letters of instructions, have been circulated around the world by your disillusioned disciples, who have also realised what is being stated here.

    >>I served in an active capacity for almost 40 years and I can't keep it up.<<<br />
    * That's really surprising. How did you keep it up without falling down in all that time?

    >>I am not avoiding the society of devotees. I simply can't travel in cars or planes to go to temples or festivals, to sing or dance or give lectures.<<<br />
    * Aren't you lucky you are part of a society that is more impersonal than the void? Nobody really misses you. You have been out of circulation for a long time, who gives a damn. They just can't afford to have you rock the boat, that's all.

    >>Maybe each of you will reach that stage sooner or later.<<<br />
    * We are, many of us, old men. Cloud nine is where you live but there are devotees on the ground who have worked hard at their Krishna consciousness and, as a result, are more secure and perceptive than you, the GBC, or its Exe. Com., can give credit for. So spit the dummy and get real.

    >>I am profoundly sorry that I slipped and fell on the road this way, a 64-year-old sannyasi who had no other brush with a woman.

    * Yep. You belong in the Guinness Book of Records. To have made your way through forty years of celibacy and then take a tumble at sixty-four is unbelievable. That is why we don't believe you. You are a liar, and you are not the first "appointed inheritor" to wriggle in the afterglow. It is pathetic, both, in the begging for sustanance and your inability to accept that the game is up.

    >>I thought for sure I'd get through to the end with a perfect record. Krsna must have seen I was proud.<< <br />
    * So it was Krishna who messed it up? Don't worry, the GBC will dig you a nice little samadhi with your footprints in gold, so the Yamas will find you without too much trouble.

    >>I pray He allows me to remain in ISKCON and follow the rules and regulations to my dying day.<<<br />
    * If you can't follow the rules and regulations as a diksa guru, frankly, you don't have a hope in hell. As for staying in ISKCON: you fit right in. The bright side is - your dying day can't be too far off.

    >>I heard that Sridhara Swami told a Godbrother just before he passed away, "Be who you are and make a contribution." I think I have written this same sentence in my books.

    * Sri Krishna said it in the Bg., Srila Prabhupada said it loud and clear in his lectures and purports, and although you have heard it finally from Sridhar Swami, there is no indication in your "confession" that you have listened or understood.

    >>I fall at the feet of all devotees and ask their forgiveness.<<<br />
    * First fall at the feet of the Godsister whose reputation you have tarnished by using her to satisfy your lust (in whatever weird form it took). That will at least mitigate some offence, and help you on your way back to reality.

    =======================

    7) Denial by Rowland Cheatham Posted June 9, 2004

    I simply do not understand the denial inherent in ISKCON concerning gurus. Satsvarupa Goswami's apology seemed more a rationalization. He cites his medical condition as an excuse. Srila Prabhupada had many medical problems, but he never found it necessary to have a female disciple give him massages. There were always plenty of male disciples willing to do the service of massaging him. I suspect Satsvarupa Goswami could have found many male devotees willing to be his therapist. He also states that he thought he would make it until the time of death with an umblemished record. Common sense dictates that these types of problems and falldowns do no begin at the age of 64. Only two of the eleven whom Prabhupada supposedly appointed as his successors are left standing, so to speak. I have witnessed the lies, propaganda and deception for the better part of 30 years. I ignore the truth at my own peril. Somehow or other I have never lost faith in the Holy Name of Krishna. But I cannot hide my head in the sand and fool myself that the institution and its leaders represent themselves honestly and openly. I wish I were wrong, but history proves me correct. Years ago, I read some of the propaganda of the rtviks and concluded they did not have a philosophical leg to stand on. But I wonder how Srila Prabhupada could have possibly appointed these men as successors.
    Rowland Cheatham Atlanta, Ga.

    [PADA: Thanks Rowland, you have the GBC pegged. The problem is that you have not told us what is your "better idea" than worship of a pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada (the ritvik idea). thanks pd

    =======================

    8) Iskcon Chapter 11 - Change Of Address

    BY GUPTA DAS — A current mailing address needs to be on file for all claimants in the Chapter 11 case. It is critical that claimants notify the court and the lawyers of any change of address from that listed on their original claim form. The easiest way to notify the courts and lawyers of a change of address is to download and fill out the PDF bankruptcy court (ask Gupta for a copy). The form requests basic information, and it is self explanatory. Fill out the form completely, then sign and date as indicated. Mail the original and a copy of the form to the California bankruptcy court. If you want a file stamped (conformed) copy from the court for your records, then submit another copy of the form along with a stamped, self-addressed return envelope. Make sure that you also mail a copy to the lawyers listed below. And, retain a copy of the completed form for your own records. If you want a delivery receipt then send the forms to the court by certified mail, Express Mail or Federal Express. Send the completed change of address form to the court, as follows.

    U.S. Bankruptcy Court
    San Fernando Valley Division
    21041 Burbank Blvd.

    Woodland Hills, CA 91367

    For the ISKCON California lawyers:

    Yves Derac
    Robinson, Diamant & Wolkowitz APC
    1888 Century Park East, Suite 1500
    Los Angeles, CA 90067

    For the ISKCON West Virginia lawyers:

    Arch W. Riley, Jr.
    Bailey, Riley Buch & Harman, L.C.
    53-14 St., Riley Building, Suite 900
    Wheeling, West Virginia 26003

    ===========================================

    The Midlife Crisis of ISKCON
    by Sacitananda dasi

    Posted June 9, 2004

    So that ISKCON's failed venture into sannyasa will not go into the storage shack without one last shake at it, lets give one more try at understanding the Satasvarupa Maharaja affair: What did really happen? No, we don't need more details on his encounters with a female counselor, persistency of headaches, treatments attempted throughout the years, etc., we did get a fair addressing of these. And everyone seems satisfied with conclusions spoken here and there about the deeper, underlying causes of the society's recurrent sannyasa falldowns. What has amusingly come into the foreground in the aftermath of the Satswarupa Maharaja affair is that devotees seem to be reacting condescending and sympathetic not to the fact that a fall was acknowledge, but to the claim that his guruship still stands. This reaction speaks almost hysterically of self- defense and self-assertion. Are we seeing that, unprepared, ISKCON is entering its inevitable midlife crisis?

    Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did succeed in his mission of establishing a worldwide society for the spreading of the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Incidentally, we have seen that Satsvarupa Maharaja himself has invited 'all generations' to remain under Prabhupada's guidance, even in the later's physical absence. Prabhupada's accomplished worldwide preaching society was possible because in its beginning thousands of energetic young seekers took up his guidance without hesitation, powerfully embracing one central ideal: renunciation. It was embraced as if a play of trade, the trade of temporary, material family ties for an infinite, permanent spiritual world. An ideal made reality in a matter of a decision, and one which pulled many, many of us into a world of transcending possibilities. Why is it that this ideal is not working anymore? Why is it that the reverse now is true, that that spiritual universe now must be left to others to explore and we must try and recover lost time in relationships we never had? Or live by the affection experienced among vanishing, temporary engagements, which, if memory serves, we know was not where we wanted to be?

    Its been reasoned that because Srila Prabhupada was not seen as a normal human being, his legacy has been one of unattainable ideals. To make him an erring normal human among us, it has been pointed out that he did make mistakes such as stating that no moon landing is a reality in a Hare Krsna world, or that women's brain are smaller than men's. But if we take the whole of Bhaktivedanta Swami's statements on various worldly subjects we will find that in all his speeches he was consistent with his ideal of cutting the jungles of Western misconceptions on transcendental truths. Thus shouldn't the classic "women's brain is smaller", for example, be read in another light, a deeper shade of grey perhaps than the abrupt spot of black in an otherwise willing white canvas? Bhaktivedanta Swami was more concerned with making an impression on his followers on the importance of moderation in sexual practices than to cater to a passing event such as feminism. It could in fact have been the case that he consciously resorted to creating such controversy so to make the point even more piercing. The fact is that women are naturally better equipped than men to receive and carry an extra load of renunciation. Thus they were branded as "less" so the men could make their attempt at more. If seen with detachment, this arrangement crafted by Bhaktivedanta Swami was nothing short of ingenious! He, not unlikely any other true sadhu, knew that no matter how reality is presented or perceived, one will find no way out of this material existence unless and until one is detached from temporary relationships.

    So while the male section of the Krsna Consciousness movement now celebrates with relief the end of sannyasa, they would do well to notice a rising phenomena among the female section. Feeling their duty has been carried on for the duration of its necessity, more and more devotee women are devising ways to politely, compassionately, suggestively, or in other fashions, ask their dependent companions to please find their ways out of the comfort of the home couches out into separate quarters, some distance away from the main home. It is a new and growing trend, tangible, real, were respectable devotee couples within ISKCON communities, such as the ISKCON Alachua community, husbands are asked to build separate quarters where they live in various degrees of semi retirement, an alteration from the many years of closeness within the family facilities. What does such happenings tell us about our society and each of us, individually, within it? And what of an answer to this question, where does it leave sannyasis who find they need to take to companionship of the opposite sex to be healed of a venture which has served them little in a personal level? Will this be a new class of guides, the spiritual maturity planned by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami for his society? A highly pressing question indeed, specially to those who, like me, have dedicated nearly 50% of our years projecting deep spiritual aspirations on the alleged realizations of this class of men.


    ==================

    Rukmini dd says: iskCON is crumbling away as we speak due to the exploits of these servants of their own senses who pose as gurus.

    Take away all the outside influences of these unauthorized gurus and give the new bhaktas only Srila Prabhupada's unchanged books and lectures and they will see the truth and kick these so-called gurus away. This is what strikes fear in the rock hard hearts of these bogus gurus - the fact that the truth might be discovered if Srila Prabhupada's true books are read.


    krishnamonk wrote:
    The unauthorized bogus gurus of iskCON want people to believe that Srila Prabhupada is not accessible by his books because it keeps them in a position to continue to exploit the resources and iskCON devotees for their own sense gratification. If they allowed people access to Prabhupada people would realize they are serving bogus gurus and the whole scam would collapse. In the due course of time it will collapse anyway because it is maya.

    [PADA: Wow Rukmini and krishnamonk, you are plain awesome, you can fight in our army anytime, watch that axe Eugene! Ouch!]

    ===================================
    GOD IS AN IDOL!

    [PADA: Oh swell. This poor guy (William Zodda) was first initiated by Tamal. Then he realized Tamal was a bad guy and he helped PADA for awhile. Then he realized PADA was a bad guy -- because his girlfriend ran off and was initiated by Narayana Maharaja without his permission. And so he ran off and became a big Narayana Maharaja groupie (because his girl friend ran over there and he got "no more love from her" till he surrendered to NM -- and so he had to disown PADA). And he told us that this was the real rasika teaching? Or was it that he got his girl back? And why is Narayana Maharaja breaking up devotee couples -- like the GBC? And now after all this: he has become a so-called Christian? In Texas they say, "Stand for something or fall for everything." The Jehovah's Witnesses also came after pada editor the other day and I baffled them by asking, OK God is sitting in a throne says the Bible, so what does He look like? One of them said He was an eledrly man an the other said, no, He has no form. He is formless. So they have no actual idea what is God. And now this poor Gaurahari, who thought he was a diksha guru for awhile, is one of them? thanks pd]

    God has alowed me to worship Gurus Idols and also get a taste of being worshiped myself as a Guru. Its all illusion. There is only one Holy God, One Son, and one Holy Spirit. When Jesus appeared the evil one the devil or Maya as Vaisnavas may call it was cast out of this world. No guru can forgive the sins of anyone. They can only help their master the devil perpetuate the horible sin of worship of idols made of stone, wood and metal. No life is in these dead things and one is also dead in spirit who worship them.

    I hope at least a few honest souls are led to repent of this horible offense against the true God if the few of you how have the ears to undersand. Go back to the worship of the true God and the genuine linage of your forfathers of the Holy Bible. Otherwise the curse of God continues that all idolotors are cast out from amonst the real children of God, ":to worship gods that their fathers have neither seen or heard of before. They will wander into foreing lands and never find true peace and freedom from doubts in their heart".

    William ( previously the idolotor Gaurahari das)
  • June 2004
    And they wonder why there are less and less devotees populating the temples!! Some temples have so few devotees that the doors are locked much of the time.

    This is shameful behavior by the servants who are to care for the master's house.

    I am happy to hear that you have taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna.

    PilgrimVaishnava:

    [quote=krishnamonk]Don't tell anyone from iskCON that Srila Prabhupada is your guru as they will most likely threaten you with physical violence. The unauthorized bogus gurus of iskCON are actually disciples of Kali-yuga not disciples of Prabhupada.
    I am afraid to say it has already happened ,as you know when anyone shows some kind of devotional service in ISKCON Temples the unsuspecting devotee is pounced upon to declare who their Guru is,I was asked and I spoke the most hurtfull name to them, Srila Prabhupada,how can that be they shout ,you have never met Him. I said to them who is that,is it not Srila Prabhupada sitting there keeping a watchfull eye. well the atmosphere turned stone cold and a few weeks latter I was offered a choice ,their guru or leave,so I left. However I did not lose anything from their lack of assocation as I have obtained a few of Srila Prabhupada's murti's and now I have the assocation of a Pure Devotee in my home,and of course His orignal books and lectures and videos. I could not be happier.[/quote]